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Post by Allec on Feb 28, 2015 8:18:00 GMT -6
...at least, I don't personally believe so. It's actually the tipping factor for me to realize I wasn't Catholic. My friend--atheist--was/is a good person, so I saw no way Yahweh could punish her for not accepting Jesus. Yet, everything in Catholic teachings said she would. I hated that concept so much I began to question why I would believe in such a thing and it unraveled to me not getting Confirmation. So going deciding to follow a polytheist path, I never felt any weight or condemnation from Yahweh because I had already abandoned him and his teachings. We went, peacefully, our separate ways.
But that's me. How do you deal with the concept? Do you still believe in Hell? Is it something you still struggle with?
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wickedlittlecritta
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Post by wickedlittlecritta on Feb 28, 2015 9:10:02 GMT -6
That was pretty much the same for me, although I didn't really get that "only Christians go to Heaven" was a concept until I was like 12 and went to visit my then-neighbor's Baptist church, and in the kids' thing they kept talking about how only people who'd been saved would be allowed into Heaven and basically going "Jesus DIED for you and if you don't accept him you are UNGRATEFUL and going to HELL" and it was weird and guilt trippy and made me massively uncomfortable, especially since I came from a church that was more "God loves you!!! Isn't that great! Be nice to other people!!!" And I guess I feel like if there is a singular capital G God and They only let people of a certain religion into Heaven then They're a petty jerk and I don't want anything to do with Them.
And if the kind of people who push that stuff are right and we all go to Hell at least we'll be away from them so it's a win-win really.
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Post by saintfelicity on Feb 28, 2015 10:33:53 GMT -6
^ That is exactly my thinking. I just could not get my head around the concept of God rejecting good people simply because they didn't accept Jesus, whereas he might accept a murderer who did? Cannot fathom it.
I don't know if I believe in it or not, but I'm actually not that firm in my afterlife beliefs right now anyway. I do tend to lean towards the whatever-you-think-will-happen-is-what-is-correct idea.
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ayaad
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Post by ayaad on Feb 28, 2015 12:04:17 GMT -6
I keep to the same concept of hell that I was raised with. It's actually pretty cool. I've only met one person in my entire life who is capable of going there, and most people never meet anyone. You basically have to have direct knowledge from a deity poured into your head, to the point where you are incapable of disbelieving no matter what, and then turn against it all intentionally. If you have even the potential to go to hell, you'll know it. Hell is pretty exclusive. Other than that, you're in good shape.
Personally, I've adapted that belief a little. I think people probably have the potential to go to different places depending on their beliefs, but I still think they're not going to hell unless they fit that very specific and rare criteria.
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aondeug
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Post by aondeug on Feb 28, 2015 13:22:47 GMT -6
The being bound for Hell thing is honestly one of the bigger reasons I've had trouble with Christianity and why it never. Clicked. The closest it ever came was with the view of things that a Catholic family I knew had. Namely that virtuous and good people who weren't Catholic or Christian at all could get into Heaven. Or at the least they would get into a sort of...generally pleasant not shit state of being that could lead to Heaven. Whereas people who did believe in God but who were absolute fucking shitheads would go to Hell. So faith alone wasn't enough, and indeed acts seemed to be weighed far more heavily by that family.
This made sense to me and seemed far fairer than the faith based things I was told about before as a kid. It still never got me to be Christian in any sense though and I just ended up developing a weird fondness for the Virgin Mary. To the point where I hope that if I'm wrong when it comes to religion and reality then I hope the Catholics are just so I can die knowing that she's around watching over people and bothering after orphans and kids with shit parents and dead babies like the various Catholic families I know says she does. Go Mary. Cosmically mom the world.
I've never really believed in Hell though. At least not in the forever and ever sense, and not in an Abrahamic one either way. I do get occasionally terrified about it though. The idea that I might be wrong and that my being wrong might be enough to land me in Hell forever is terrifying. And the only real driving force I have ever felt for converting to Christianity or Islam. It's not out of some genuine love for God or a respect for Muslims and Christians (though I did go through a phase of wanting to be Catholic just because the only not shitty people I knew were Catholic) or anything like that. It's because I'm just horribly afraid of going to Hell.
Which is going to forever ensure that I don't convert. Because that isn't some sort of "rational" or reasonable thing. That is just "Aondeug is sent into a panic attack and worries about this neurotically even when she's not panicking". A relationship I could have with Christianity or Islam just wouldn't be healthy. At all.
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GreenAsSin
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Post by GreenAsSin on Feb 28, 2015 18:57:09 GMT -6
I haven't believed in Hell for quite some time. The tipping point for me was during a religion class in high school where the pastor described his version of Hell as being simply an absenced of God and his light, rather than some horrible place full of fire and suffering. It just sort of clicked with me and eventually I think that's what led to my non-belief in the horrible place Christians describe. Not to mention it's hard to believe that an all loving, all understanding deity would condemn anyone to that kind of horrifying afterlife for any of the petty reasons the Catholic church claims. Then maybe three or four years back I got a book for my birthday called Azrael Loves Chocolate, Michael's A Jock which was published by a woman that works spiritually with the Archangels. In her book she described Hell as whatever kind of place the deceased decided it would be and that people that had done evil in their lives often self-condemned themselves to their personal Hells until they felt that they'd made up for what they'd done while they were alive. I found that idea really interesting and have since then sort of cultivated a similar view of the afterlife in general. A spirit can create or find their own version of the afterlife and exist there accordingly and whether or not that afterlife involves some version of Hell is highly personalized.
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aondeug
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Post by aondeug on Feb 28, 2015 19:14:07 GMT -6
Oh that is actually a version of Hell that I like. It just being an absence of God. It makes me think of when you hurt a loved one enough that they just cut you out of their life. They might forgive you and let you back in, but that's for them to decide. You meanwhile just get to live with the knowledge that you ruined your relationship. And the guilt's all on you. They still love you and still want the best for you but they have to leave. It's not a thing I believe in but it is probably the one version of Abrahamic Hell that I like in terms of...concept? I guess.
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Skywalker
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Post by Skywalker on Feb 28, 2015 22:30:25 GMT -6
Hel, yes. Hell, not so much.
The whole concept of Hell is one of the things that drove me from Christianity. Once I got over being terrified of it. I used to cry because I knew that I was going to Hell because I was a really, really bad kid. And I'd go to my church's youth group where they'd talk about how everything I did and everything I thought was a sin and it was all going to condemn me to Hell. And then there was this crazy family friend who was convinced swearing sent you to hell and she told me so about a week after I said the F-word for the first time and that wasn't fun.
But after I decided that Christianity was wrong for me, I stopped worrying about it so much. I don't really have any specific belief as far as the afterlife goes, and I figure if Christianity is right, then I'm either screwed or I'm not so no sense worrying about it. In the meantime, I just pretend everyone's actually talking about Hel and I go off about how awesome she is.
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Post by Intaier on Mar 1, 2015 2:38:56 GMT -6
( from my recent blog post) One of most hard things to absorb in Catholic and Orthodox afterlife concept, is that when you die, you can do NOTHING to help yourself. At all. You can only rely to the prayers of the living. If you made a mistake, a sin, don’t have a time to go to confession and next day die in the plane crash, you are literally doomed, if you have no relatives or friends willing to pray about you. Especially I hated the hypocrisy of Catholic Church about “venial” and “grave” and “mortal” sins. Generally there are types of sins that MUST be confessed, or, if you die without confession, you are doomed to hell (and prayers of the living might help you, but there is very little hope). Ant so technically, skipping the Mass in Sunday IS that kind of sin that sends you to hell. If you skip a mass in sunday without a good reason, but just because you were lazy to go to church, and you die next day, Hell is what you get. There will be more liberal priests who probably would not push that literally onto you. But apologists on Catholic Answers website joyfully tell all forum members who ask these questions, that Yeah! if you skip the mass in sunday just because you were lazy and wanted to watch tv on your coach instead, and if you die next day, you will go to Hell! Enjoy the religion of love! I started getting crazy about it. I really loved going to the Mass, until it became a feeling of guilt and obligation. “Go to the Mass every sunday, or you may end in Hell”. The constant feeling of guilt. I stopped feeling the joy of being in the church. Instead, I only felt fear and obligation. In fact, my spiritual life became much more fulfilling and I became much more enthusiastic about prayer, when the constant Damocles’ sword of “feat of hell, feeling of guilt and obligation” was GONE. I started praying because I wanted to, not because I was obliged to. I started sing hymns of glory to the Gods which resonated with my heart - not the medieval prayers taken from dusty pages of prayerbooks where the person is encouraged to repeat non-stop how he is a dirty, unworthy sinner. Russian orthodox prayers from prayerbooks will compare the person who calls up to God, with worm and dirty pig, you must lie on your belly in dust and dirt (metaphorically or literally), constantly feel the fear of hell, but don’t give up to complete despair, because Jesus still loves you. (quoting more from my another recent blog post) The concept of Hell as an eternal punishment without any hope is one of most terrifying theological inventions made by the church. Recently after re-reading the story of prince Setna and his son (one of most vivid descriptions of kemetic afterlife done in AE), I noticed one thing. The soul’s deeds are weighted, and generally if you have done more good things than bad things in your life, you are fine. You go to the “egyptian heaven” to live with the Gods and join “august spirits”. And if you have done equal amount of good and bad things, you are fine and stay in the fields of Sokar-Osiris. They entered the seventh hall, and Setne saw the mysterious form of Osiris, the great god, seated on his throne of fine gold, crowned with the atef-crown. Anubis, the great god, was on his left, the great god Thoth was on his right, and the gods of the tribunal of the inhabitants of the netherworld stood on his left and right. The balance stood in the center before them, and they weighed the good deeds against the misdeeds, Thoth, the great god, writing, while Anubis gave the information to his colleague.He who would be found to have more misdeeds than good deeds [is handed over] to the Devourer, who belongs to the lord of the netherworld. His ba is destroyed together with his body, and he is not allowed to breathe ever again.He who would be found to have more good deeds than misdeeds is taken in among the gods of the tribunal of the lord of the netherworld, while his ba goes to the sky together with the august spirits.He who would be found to have good deeds equal to his misdeeds is taken in among the excellent spirits who serve Sokar-Osiris. […]- But, not everyone, who did mode bad things than good things, is sent to be eaten by Ammit. Some of the souls are being sent to “imprisonment in the Netherworld”, where they experience punishment (you will see that on the example of the rich man in the story) "Take it to your heart, my father Setne: He who is beneficent on earth, to him one is beneficent in the netherworld. And he who is evil, to him one is evil. It is so decreed [and will remain so] for ever. The things that you have seen in the netherworld at Memphis, they happen in the forty-two nomes [in which are the judges] of Osiris, the great god. -Only if you have done significantly more bad things than good things, you may get punishment. Again, probably one must be total asshole to get eaten by Ammit. I *personally* think that getting eaten by Ammit would result into all bad things damaging the soul, to get “devoured”, and whatever good part of the soul and her achievements on earth remain, might be sent to Earth again for reincarnation. Also it’s definitely worth noticing that not everyone from “sinners” gets eaten by Ammit. Some continue to live in the Netherworld, but suffer punishment, however it’s not stated that they will be damned forever and ever hopelessly, as it’s usually told in Catholic and Orthodox rhetoric about Hell. Anyway, keeping in mind that if you have done more good things than bad things in life, will give you nice afterlife, is much more relieving than caring about “grave, mortal, venial” sins calculations, and I really think that if Catholic church apologists teach that skipping Mass in sunday is a sin that might send you to hell if remains non-confessed, this is definitely a problem with Catholic doctrine. This is not the message of love and mercy. (It’s also a noticeable thing, that going to atheism (losing faith) would be understood by christian society more lightly, than “betraying” the faith by voluntary joining of worship of *many* Gods.)
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Post by Allec on Mar 1, 2015 21:35:31 GMT -6
I totally forgot how sometimes hell was the absence of God, according to some folk.
And thanks for sharing your compare/contrast Intaier!
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Post by Intaier on Mar 2, 2015 11:51:46 GMT -6
... more thoughts from today:
Yesterday I gave away a huge load of books to book-collector lady. And, while sorting books to give away, I took a look at the collection of works of one of early Church Fathers, Aphanasy the Great; this book was in russian (of course) edition, consisting 4 volumes. Most of these volumes, though, contained his letters to churches and bishops against different heresies or about dogmatic/church issues, and they were kinda boring. The end of last volume had a short letter about "Orthodox" belief formula (his "creed") regarding God as Holy Trinity.
I checked this formula, and first, I felt pleased, because there were some important concept about God that I believe as well. It was very small moment when I thought "My beliefs about supreme God are still pretty orthodox". But then, Aphanasy's creed continued with lines (I'm quoting from russian translation and by memory, so it's not 100% accurate) "So, this is the Orthodox faith (about God)... Holding this faith is necessary to receive Salvation. If your beliefs are not (*like explained in that "creed"), then you will not receive Salvation. All who believe wrong, are heretics and bound to Hell".
And I closed this book, feeling really disgusted. Because of the Orthodoxy, yes. The whole mindset of the Orthodoxy. "You must believe such, such and such dogmas. If you believe something wrong, you are heretic damned to Hell". These protectors of Holy Orthodoxy did not care if their opponents were good or bad people. In their world, you may be greatest person ever, but they don't care until you believe the "right" way, meaning, their way. And the Theology is so advanced thing for a human mind to fully understand. It's so easy to have theological mistakes. It's so easy to just be ignorant about some concepts about the divine world...
This is what I love about the polytheistic world: tolerance, acceptance, plurality of beliefs. And, you would not be sent to Hell if you beliefs about something happen to be wrong. Even if you really have really wrong belief in your head such as thinking that Sun moves around the Earth (does it? :)
... most of the religions generally agree that to achieve good afterlife, one needs to *act* as a good person. Loving the neighbor, yes, this was the message of Jesus too. Not "You must believe such and such about God, and Trinity... and if you believe wrong, you will go to hell".
(One of these "Good news" of polytheism: you are not going to hell just for believing about something wrongly)
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Post by Allec on Mar 2, 2015 18:25:55 GMT -6
Yeah, I definitely think that if you believe something wrongly the Gods or Spirits might be upset. But that's on an individual basis, and I think they'll take matters into their own hands--I don't need to get involved. Brighid definitely avoided me until I figured out how to correctly approach her, for example haha. (Which is to say, I needed not to treat her like a Wiccan Matron Goddess ><) She didn't condemn me to Hell--especially since that doesn't exist really in Gaelic Polytheism.
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harpinghawke
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Post by harpinghawke on Mar 3, 2015 1:14:07 GMT -6
I keep to the same concept of hell that I was raised with. It's actually pretty cool. I've only met one person in my entire life who is capable of going there, and most people never meet anyone. You basically have to have direct knowledge from a deity poured into your head, to the point where you are incapable of disbelieving no matter what, and then turn against it all intentionally. If you have even the potential to go to hell, you'll know it. Hell is pretty exclusive. Other than that, you're in good shape. Personally, I've adapted that belief a little. I think people probably have the potential to go to different places depending on their beliefs, but I still think they're not going to hell unless they fit that very specific and rare criteria. I have never met anyone with that same belief. **fistbump**
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Post by TheModernSouthernPolytheist on Mar 3, 2015 11:35:57 GMT -6
Yeah, Hell has been one of the biggest things I've had trouble lettin go of. I was raised very "fire-and-brimstone" Southern Baptist and it was drilled into my head from a VERY young age that I'd go to hell if I wasn't Christian, if I was gay, if I didn't believe exactly as I was instructed. On one hand, I could never rationalize my non-Christian, non-devout, and Catholic (yeah, I was that kind of Baptist) friends goin to Hell simply because they didn't believe like we did. It just didn't make sense. As I got older, it made even less sense. By that logic, everyone born before Judaism was monotheistic would have gone to hell and there's nothing they could have done about it. How is that fair? Or people that had merely heard the name of Jesus but hadn't converted? Still didn't make sense.
Yet at the same time, I still have momentary panics of "what if I'm wrong?" What if I go to Hell? I do try to take comfort in the fact Christianity is the only world religion that believes in an eternal hell. I know that might sound weird, but there's some level of comfort in knowing that so many religions teach of hell as a place to learn from your wrong deeds or even as a punishment, but still a temporary condition for all but the worst of the worst of the worst.
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Post by Intaier on Mar 4, 2015 6:36:30 GMT -6
Yes, temporary punishment seems to be quite fair. But many Christian churches insisting that Hell will be eternal, this is definitely not fair. it's hard to imagine a benevolent God creating a place of eternal torture for people who made mistakes during their short earthly lives.
It's definitely "drilled in the head" and it's hard to take out that drill: fear that for just believing something wrongly you would burn in flames for eternity.
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