wiintertides
Newbie
Posts: 14
Pronouns: She/her
Religion: Irish polytheist
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Post by wiintertides on May 20, 2016 20:59:46 GMT -6
I find that even though I haven't been a Christian in... 6 years? sometimes I still wonder if I'm on the right path. And honestly maybe I will never be fullly released of this fear. But I find I just have to think through it and trust in my gods (which isn't always easy). Maybe one day.
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Post by Intaier on May 24, 2016 17:04:53 GMT -6
It helped to me when I realized I will not enjoy christian version of paradise without Gods. The communion with Them (Djehuty first :) is what a blessed afterlife would be for me. This is all metaphorical - I don't think that there are walls between different afterlife paths one could never cross. If we get to meet our ancestors, we'll get a visitor ticket to other religion afterlife domains :) And I want to believe these are much more full of love than humans tend to describe them.
And eternal hell makes no sense. Temporary punishment may do. Eternal hell is most wicked religious concept humans came up with. It's based on pure hatred. :(
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Post by Intaier on May 27, 2016 23:40:41 GMT -6
“And so what? You will be there with me!” One of favorite Djehuty’s ways of trolling me [on the godphone-type communication when it happens] is using the Bible quotes. I love and hate that in the same time, because he really has a mastery of throwing in the Bible quote in a very appropriate moment and very appropriate context. Quotes from other sacred texts or just famous books happen too. But, the most elegant way of making fun of me… is, indeed, when he quotes the Bible. Another his favorite joke, though, is quoting Lermontov’s poem “Demon” when I think about the afterlife and the doubts of “going to christian hell” rise again. Once I specifically looked for english translation of Lermontov’s “Demon”, to see how this line would sound for english reader. Unfortunately, the translations, made for the sake of rhythm and rhyme, are weak and miss most important point. Let's see these: DEMON None is near. TAMARA And God? DEMON He heeds not — never fear, He ’s in the heaven of heavens, not here. TAMARA The day of wrath, the pains of hell ! DEMON What matter if at one we dwell? [ another translation] Demon. We are alone ! Tamara. And God ? Demon. His glance on us shall never dwell. His realm is Heaven, He scarce can spare For earth a thought. Tamara. His sentence ? oh ! and Hell ? Demon. Tamara, shall not I be there ! … and they both are not very accurate. When I’ve been looking at the displays of funeral papyri in Cairo museum, - not just typical weighting of the heart scenes, but all these weird and obscure books of Amduat, and Breathing, and motives from CT and other spells, old and late; weird figures and inhabitants of the Duat on the vignettes were so intimidating and intriguing in same time… “So why would you want the christian afterlife, if it’s so interesting *with us*”, he said. And later, he reminded me the Lermontov’s quote, as an excellent joke in his mouth indeed. The dialogue of Tamara and Demon (when he admits her his love etc) ends like this (the exact translation): “- But the punishment? The torments of hell? - And, so what? You will be there with me!” … and so, every time I may thing about egyptian afterlife, I feel him smiling like then. “It’s so interesting there, with us” and - “ And, so what? You will be there with me!”
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yellowdog
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Posts: 10
Religion: universalism
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Post by yellowdog on Aug 28, 2016 1:09:33 GMT -6
I identify as a christian polytheist and I don't believe in hell and punishment to hell. That was a concept floating around the mediterranean for a while, maybe from 200 BC until after Christ. I believe the modern Jews are right who promote having to stay in a purgatorial place after death for a while if you've been evil. You're not punished there in the sense of being burned or beaten or something, instead you go through a cleansing and regretting and making right in yourself your evils with God and man. According to the Jews purgatory lasts for a year AT MOST and Hitler who has probably been the worst man who ever lived had to stay for such a duration. It's more like being in a strict kind of monastery than a hell full of fire.
My friend Jesus was about changing religion from a law focus to a spirit focus. He erected his cross to get the law of sin and death out of religion. Basically, the Israelites in the bible had started their law-based religion not with "Do no harm" but instead with "Do not sin". And God found this was wrong as it lead to manipulation, hypocrisy, unbelief and endless exaggerated animal sacrifices. "Do no harm" centers morality on having not to cause damage to other humans, it inspires care and the need for being happy together. "Do not sin" instead causes you to want to be obedient to God but in the truth God only wants to love us, grace us with various gifts and let us live in peace. Jesus performed a love sacrifice, not a sin offering. He wants to impress us with the need of being spiritual, and with Spirit, as a polytheist, I mean the "substance" of the gods and the life in the Cosmos that is kind of the same in everything. Jesus was less of a son of God than a son of the Spirit of the Cosmos. Remember the 3 wise men that visited him after his birth? They were no Jews and likely didn't only recognize Yahweh. They knew a lot about the divine mysteries. They brought some gold, myrrh and incense, something that was present in all religions as sacred material.
So I think Jesus knew about the other gods but among the Jews he better not mentioned that lest he wanted to be stoned quickly or loose all respect in the religious community of them. So he spoke more about their things, the proper veneration of Yahweh, right ethical conduct, and what men could get from himself, Jesus. And he revealed himself as a son of God and I think may have alluded to being a kind of demigod, much like Hercules, but with the Spirit of the Cosmos as his father. He was acquainted with suffering and grief like Isaiah prophesied and for me that in the end actually means that Jesus goes more to those who suffer and isn't always simply helping those who have it well. At least that is his dream, that we would be merciful to each other and not jump into a religious understanding where the laws of sin and death would be the main thing.
So if you have fear of hell, relax and lean back, no God is sending you there and actually this hell place does not even exist. And purgatory will likely not be your destiny either, and if you've been truly evil and broke the law of "Do no harm", and regret it then you've entered purgatory already and won't have to get into it after death. In Jesus only the 2 love commandments really matter (and we fulfill it by using the 2nd commandment of loving your neighbor to fulfill the 1st commandment of loving God, so nothing about "with all your strength and soul and being"). When other christians threaten you, know that they try to slip back into ancient Israel and make the church God's only abode. But it is the Spirit that is the true divinity in all of us and in the gods, and this Spirit is universally gracious to all and doesn't just reside in the church.
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mitch245
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Posts: 32
Pronouns: He/Him
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Post by mitch245 on Aug 28, 2016 12:50:01 GMT -6
I feel the need to comment on certain things in this post. " hell and punishment to hell. That was a concept floating around the mediterranean for a while, maybe from 200 BC until after Christ." The first religious references to hell that I learnt about was from Zoroastrianism, which is far older than that. An interesting point is that people do eventually get out of the zoroastrian version of hell in a huge final cleansing.
Similarly, the idea of the Jews historically being purely monotheistic is problematic (again, purely from a scholarly point of view). A quick Jstor search on the angel Metatron reveals that in some circles Yhwh was not the only god worshiped, as sometimes Metatron may have been worshiped as well. Similarly, before the fall of the temple there are many artefacts that prove the highly polytheistic beliefs of the Israelites/Jews (not sure which term is appropriate for that era, sorry). All this to say the Judaism we know of now, and the one we encounter in the bible was not the only one, and as some scholars debate, not even the prevalent form of beliefs in ancient history.
This is in no way to detract from your argument, just to pass on some information. It may even help your argument, e,g, Jesus may have been reaching back to an older polytheist trend, but as it wasn't the dominant one any longer it wasn't recorded, etc. Or Jesus may have been alluding to Metatron (some find links between Metatron's portrayal and that of Jesus, I think). All in all I find your argument to be nice and peaceful, though it does not match my beliefs at all. Glad to see some positive forms of Christianity that embrace more than one god! I'm looking forward to seeing more from you, as this is very interesting!
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yellowdog
Newbie
Posts: 10
Religion: universalism
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Post by yellowdog on Aug 28, 2016 23:10:53 GMT -6
Yes, you are right about Zoroastrianism. But Judaism is not zoroastrian and as far as I know they didn't share the belief in the zoroastrian hell. Hellfire punishments were more of a folk superstition that the scribes and wise men could not eradicate, the bible itself does not have it at all. Jesus seems to have picked it up to make clear the need for more mercy and life and love, but when he spoke about hellfire PUNISHMENTS he refers to Gehenna/Gen-Hinnom. (I think you know the Gen-Hinnom meaning) Yet Jesus wanted nothing militarily or political or violent, he judges with words. As you might know, a regular judge of our time has more options than Thumb Up or Thumb Down like in a coliseum. For example, I live in a group home and a judge arranged that for me, not as a sentence but as an arrangement because of having a certain illness. Likewise Jesus has many more options than simply condemning someone to hellfire as that would mean he'd loose a human and Jesus is not into that.
About Judaism once worshiping other gods too, yes that is true but the bible obscures that. My own research and investigation suggests that some always knew about the Spirit being the real god but others did not and venerated other gods too and sometimes demonic idols. For example I do not quite think that Baal-Peor and Moloch were real deities and according to jewish history they caused much trouble in the land. But that was also the point at which the Jewish religion got into problems with the monotheism they dug up to get rid of this past. Yahweh was too small for that job and yet they tried to make up for what is missing by zeal and trying hard to keep the entire Torah from Moses, including the levitical lawbook they had found in the temple. Yahweh then really made a feat by bringing the Jews back from Babylon and Persia but the central question of what if there are also other gods was largely ignored by the Jews because they were afraid it would bring them into Yahweh's condemnation once more. It was a difficult time for them.
I believe in a big afterlife for all, and don't think of it as a mere soul's and spirit's place. More like Summerland and the indian "Eternal Hunting Grounds" and the above of the Blessed in hellenism and so on. I've had visions of it which were really beautiful and if I wasn't fully deluded then a suicide victim was with me for a while once to serve God by delivering me from suicidal thoughts. She showed me visions of afterlife places and it's a very mixed place where all religions are considered and where all real gods play a pivotal role, as well as angels and certain spirits. It may sound odd, but it's also like a fairytale place, there are dwarves, elves, many very intelligent and spiritual animals, spirits, etc. I also met my deceased dad again and he also assured me the afterlife is a peaceful and tolerant place.
Many would love Jesus for being a world savior (one of those, I mean), but pretty much everyone follows Jesus' own admittance that others did more than him. He's my friend but I also go to Zeus, Odin sometimes, Manitou, Allah and even more. Zeus's son Hercules was a guy like Jesus too and I also had some visions about him that he did work for Zeus on Earth and that the missions he got from him in the books were to be seen spiritually. Spirit really is the key to understand it all because it's the divinity really in everything and everyone. There's even a way to interpret it all atheistically by not calling the gods gods anymore and instead seeing them as spirit persons that have a story, a beginning, a birth, that have wives and children, that even have fears (look up the moiras, Zeus was said to be afraid of fate and destiny stuff). That's why I also often venerate the Spirit of the Cosmos as a God because that's where much love and homecoming is for me and where power is waiting over many problems we might be facing on our planet.
Thank you for the comment.
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Post by helmsinepu on Dec 29, 2016 8:43:10 GMT -6
… and so, every time I may thing about egyptian afterlife, I feel him smiling like then. “It’s so interesting there, with us” and - “ And, so what? You will be there with me!” It seems like anybody who isn't horrible can get into the Egyptian afterlife. There's no test of "Did you believe in the Egyptian Gods? If not, away with you!" You might have a big advantage having a copy of the funerary literature to avoid eating poo or avoiding the bus-sized cockroach. There have been Christian universalists who thought that everyone (eventually) would get into heaven. Unfortunately, most of them were burned alive or killed in other unpleasant ways.
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