redvulture
Newbie
Posts: 2
Pronouns: they/them (or any nb/gq pronoun)
Religion: Animist/Kemetic/Celtoi
|
Post by redvulture on Mar 28, 2015 22:08:15 GMT -6
Whoa....that....feels sort of offensive? I don't feel it's dead at all. |
|
seamu5
Junior Member
Posts: 55 
Pronouns: Barbarian
Religion: Gaelic Polytheism
|
Post by seamu5 on Mar 30, 2015 14:32:17 GMT -6
Whoa....that....feels sort of offensive? I don't feel it's dead at all. Gaelic Ireland died in the 1600's with the Flight of the Earls. Everything else comes from the Gaelic revival in the 1800's and 1900's. Nothing offensive about it, just what happened. It's important to add that there are eras of Gaelic Ireland. Pre-Christian/Early Medieval. Viking Age and Norman (1200's is the Gaelic Resurgence), which is kind of the middle Gaelic period. By the Renaissance/Tudor era Gaelic Society was really starting to dwindle. Most Clan chiefs saw where power and wealth were heading and there was to much infighting for any sort of alliance. They had no idea of Nationalism, it was familial ties, counties, and English Earldoms. Most Gaels would have rather seen their enemies destroyed and have English money than work together. The only reason Ireland stayed culturally Irish are because of stubbornness, the Gaelic Revival, Modern Nationalism, and not liking over 800 years of occupation. But by the time of the Easter Rising, there was no Gaelic society. It had been dead for three hundred years. No tuatha, no brehon, no clan chiefs and kingdoms. What we still have are bits and pieces people desperately held on to so they could have some sort of feeling of identity, and the Revival and Nationalism built off of that. Yes Gaeilge is still spoken, and there has been a huge rise in speaking it as a daily language, but it may not be the same as a first language. It's more like learning Spanish in America. But, unlike America, it actually works. Ireland might be looking at Wales and how it started teaching Welsh as early as possible and has only welsh speaking schools children can attend. Scotland is starting this too. But that debate is an entirely different thread. Wikipedia has a good summery of the timeline of Gaelic Society. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_Ireland#1801-On en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language |
|
|
|
Post by Allec on Mar 30, 2015 16:34:45 GMT -6
Whoa....that....feels sort of offensive? I don't feel it's dead at all. Gaelic Ireland died in the 1600's with the Flight of the Earls. Everything else comes from the Gaelic revival in the 1800's and 1900's. Nothing offensive about it, just what happened. It's important to add that there are eras of Gaelic Ireland. Pre-Christian/Early Medieval. Viking Age and Norman (1200's is the Gaelic Resurgence), which is kind of the middle Gaelic period. By the Renaissance/Tudor era Gaelic Society was really starting to dwindle. Most Clan chiefs saw where power and wealth were heading and there was to much infighting for any sort of alliance. They had no idea of Nationalism, it was familial ties, counties, and English Earldoms. Most Gaels would have rather seen their enemies destroyed and have English money than work together. The only reason Ireland stayed culturally Irish are because of stubbornness, the Gaelic Revival, Modern Nationalism, and not liking over 800 years of occupation. But by the time of the Easter Rising, there was no Gaelic society. It had been dead for three hundred years. No tuatha, no brehon, no clan chiefs and kingdoms. What we still have are bits and pieces people desperately held on to so they could have some sort of feeling of identity, and the Revival and Nationalism built off of that. Yes Gaeilge is still spoken, and there has been a huge rise in speaking it as a daily language, but it may not be the same as a first language. It's more like learning Spanish in America. But, unlike America, it actually works. Ireland might be looking at Wales and how it started teaching Welsh as early as possible and has only welsh speaking schools children can attend. Scotland is starting this too. But that debate is an entirely different thread. Wikipedia has a good summery of the timeline of Gaelic Society. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_Ireland#1801-On en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_languageI think you're going all-or-nothing again. Even according to Wikipedia, the Gaelic culture didn't die: "As Christianity became the prominent religion in Ireland, the Gaelic roots that defined early Irish history still was present. It was long and far between Catholic parishes in Ireland in the years leading up to the Great Famine, thus many priests believed that the parishioners having some spirituality was more important than anything, resulting in a morphing of Gaelic and Catholic traditions." It morphed, sure, and it got rid of somethings like clan chiefs as time progressed. But that doesn't mean the Gaelic culture ever died. |
|
seamu5
Junior Member
Posts: 55
Pronouns: Barbarian
Religion: Gaelic Polytheism
|
Post by seamu5 on Mar 30, 2015 18:46:37 GMT -6
I think you're going all-or-nothing again. Even according to Wikipedia, the Gaelic culture didn't die: "As Christianity became the prominent religion in Ireland, the Gaelic roots that defined early Irish history still was present. It was long and far between Catholic parishes in Ireland in the years leading up to the Great Famine, thus many priests believed that the parishioners having some spirituality was more important than anything, resulting in a morphing of Gaelic and Catholic traditions." It morphed, sure, and it got rid of somethings like clan chiefs as time progressed. But that doesn't mean the Gaelic culture ever died. I'm going to disagree about all or nothing, but totally agree with the morphing and surviving traditions. There's a reason the Creideamh Sí survived. I'm looking at secular culture and society. Yeah, in pre-Christian and Middle Ages religion and culture went hand in hand. But that started changing during the Tudor Period, this is where we actually start seeing Colonialism politics coming into play. Specifically with King Henry VIII, who proclaimed himself King of Ireland in order to destroy claims of the Ulster chiefs. It's also where we start seeing the consolidation of English power to within The Pale (Dublin and the surrounding counties), before this England held only The Pale and the rest of Ireland in name only. Once he has actual power he starts making the Anglo-Irish lords to keep bureaucratic accounts and keep him informed. Meaning they have to start doing their actual jobs and report back or lose everything. We start seeing laws banning Gaeilge, traditional dress, traditional hair cuts called the glib (think of an emo boy hair cut), and the clans. Ireland is also supposed to ban Catholicism now that Henry does it in England. Elizabeth I starts bringing in plantations in Ulster and tossing the Gaelic Irish off their lands with English, I.E Protestants. This means they have dismantled the traditional cultural way of life as the Gaels knew it. There were few pockets of resistance, but much like other tribal societies, couldn't band together. Cromwell fully brings Ireland to heel and this is when the last of the Gaelic chiefs flee to France, Flight of the Earls. They mostly became mercenaries never to return home, this is where the Wild Geese come from. By the mid sixteenth century Gaelic culture as we think of it was dead. They had Gaelige in secret, but everything that made Ireland Gaelic "Gaelic" was banned, burned, and sold. All they had left was a vague form of spirituality that would be chipped at until the 1800's and their stories. Everything else that made the culture was now gone and would not be revived till the late 1800's/ Early 1900's as a political tool for Nationalism. We can thank the "Celtic Revival" for this big time. It was the final push for the Irish to claim an age identity that was stripped from them generations ago. I honestly would phrase it as we're both right; The Gaelic culture is dead. We're living in the New Gaelic Culture built on the ruins and bones of the old one. |
|
leithincluan
Junior Member
Posts: 85
Pronouns: she/her
Religion: Gaelic Polytheism and modern British druidry
|
Post by leithincluan on Mar 31, 2015 9:27:20 GMT -6
I think you're going all-or-nothing again. Even according to Wikipedia, the Gaelic culture didn't die: "As Christianity became the prominent religion in Ireland, the Gaelic roots that defined early Irish history still was present. It was long and far between Catholic parishes in Ireland in the years leading up to the Great Famine, thus many priests believed that the parishioners having some spirituality was more important than anything, resulting in a morphing of Gaelic and Catholic traditions." It morphed, sure, and it got rid of somethings like clan chiefs as time progressed. But that doesn't mean the Gaelic culture ever died. By the mid sixteenth century Gaelic culture as we think of it was dead. They had Gaelige in secret, but everything that made Ireland Gaelic "Gaelic" was banned, burned, and sold. All they had left was a vague form of spirituality that would be chipped at until the 1800's and their stories. Everything else that made the culture was now gone and would not be revived till the late 1800's/ Early 1900's as a political tool for Nationalism. We can thank the "Celtic Revival" for this big time. It was the final push for the Irish to claim an age identity that was stripped from them generations ago. I honestly would phrase it as we're both right; The Gaelic culture is dead. We're living in the New Gaelic Culture built on the ruins and bones of the old one. How is this different from any country and the slow slide from ancient to modern? Modern Greek culture is not ancient Greek culture, but there wasn't a point where one died and another emerged. The same is true for Ireland. I don't disagree with your history, at all. The difficulty is defining Gaelic culture. There is ancient Gaelic culture and there is modern Gaelic culture. One leads into another. The many people who live in the Gaeltacht in Ireland, and speak Irish as a first language, would disagree strongly with you that Irish culture is dead. Note, they do indeed learn it as a FIRST language. My family genealogy shows that Irish was spoken by my family until 1910, and there are families down the road that never stopped speaking it. A fair few of them. And many other aspects of culture exist. Gaelic culture is not dead. It's just different from how it was as an ancient culture. |
|
|
|
Post by Allec on Mar 31, 2015 17:30:39 GMT -6
I completely agree with leithincluan.
|
|
seamu5
Junior Member
Posts: 55
Pronouns: Barbarian
Religion: Gaelic Polytheism
|
Post by seamu5 on Apr 2, 2015 19:41:07 GMT -6
I completely agree that it is still a Gaelic culture, my main argument is just how for removed from history does a culture have to be for it to be considered dead? The Gaelic/Celtic revival brought a lot of misconceptions of "Celticness", which I blame on bad history and using it for political motivation. It did help ignite the spark of the Irish War of Independence, but also the Civil War. When our religion focuses on a culture that hasn't been that way in nearly 1,000 years, how do we fit in with the modern one. How do we be "modern Celts" when our religion is based on ways that are now considered history/dead/fairy tales. I feel like sometimes I'm an old man in a young man's body trying to remember how things were, but can't quite catch up with how they are now.
|
|
|
|
Post by Allec on Apr 2, 2015 19:56:57 GMT -6
It's not removed from history, though? It's part of its own history. It never left its history. It changed, adapted, and morphed but it still is Gaelic culture all the same? It's a continuum. The Modern Gael is still influenced from the Ancient Gael. There are still similarities and core values that are unchanged. Language and technology and government changed, but a lot of the other things are still intact.
I also don't know how many people in the Gaeltacht consider their stories about the Good Folk to be "dead" tales...
And my religion focuses on gods that haven't been necessarily honored by the Gaelic people for centuries, but there are plenty of other things my religion takes from that continuum in the modern world.
|
|
