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Post by brimstonne on Jul 26, 2015 12:51:11 GMT -6
Speaking as a mentally ill pagan, theres a lot of annoying things that happen in the community that concern us. Most of it is well meant but others arent. So heres some articles! So the articles cover the well meaning one first-people who think they know how to help but really dont have any idea. The second article however made me SO SO angry as I was reading it. My disorders do not make me an abusive person, they do not make me a predator, and they do not make me unable to be a productive part of a pagan group. There are people like that in the community but that needs to be addressed as an actual problem, not by using mental illness as some scapegoat. www.patheos.com/blogs/paganswithdisabilities/2015/01/16-things-mentally-ill-pagans-have-to-put-up-with/Or people who associate mental illnesses as aggressive and not belonging in groups, and only taking "manageable mental illnesses. (Read anxiety and depression only.) Or generalizing all illnesses down to stereotypes. Or in this case comparing us to child predators, and abusers. This article specifically is showing abusive behaviors as those of the mentally ill only, rather than you know, abusive people(TW:sexual assault mentions,abuse,ableism) paganactivist.com/2014/04/09/pagans-mental-health-and-abuse/
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Post by Allec on Jul 26, 2015 16:10:08 GMT -6
I've certainly faced ableism at the hands of the pagan/polytheist/witchy community. Reading through the first article [ this one], I have experienced 10 of the 16 listed. Like a lot of problems in the Pagan/Polytheist/Witchy communities, these problems don't usually come from malice but from a "good place" but...Hopefully seeing lists and explanations as to why these things are hurtful can be addressed. And this thread is a good place to ask, if you're neurodivergent and not sure why something in that list is offensive! The second article...has a lot of things. For one, it doesn't make a distinction between how most people who have a mental illness are more likely to suffer from abuse than to be the causes of abuse. The way the article addresses people with mental health disorders as bothersome, nuances, and people to be "dealt" with isn't helpful. And I don't like the structure of comparing people with mental health disorders to a predator like Kenny Klein. And then this: "However, knowing that her behavior was potentially related to a mental illness allowed me to stop trying to make rational sense of her actions. This is one of the core traps of logical, reasonable people. When you’re reasonable, you expect others to be reasonable. " This comes off as being really ableist... This seems to be positioning neurotypicals as "reasonable" while neurodivergent people are "unreasonable", when the reality is that neurodivergent people tend to just not fit in with societal rules and norms. And they are assuming that the person had some mental health disorder without consulting her. Ugh. That whole article is really bothersome. It's again coming from a good place but...it's riddled with ableism.
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calluna
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Post by calluna on Jul 26, 2015 17:06:25 GMT -6
The touchy people who always want to touch you, or randomly hug you drive me up a wall. Especially if they go anywhere near my hair. I've started literally wearing my hair up in pagan-friendly places because I don't want to get in trouble for punching someone in the face because they came up behind me to pet my hair and triggered a response from grabbing my hair being the way my abusers caught me and kept me down. PTSD does not understand the idea that you think we're all one or all siblings and touchy touchy bad.
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Post by Allec on Jul 26, 2015 19:51:09 GMT -6
Ugh agreed...I'm so happy that the event I'm going to this upcoming weekend--Many Gods West--has a policy about asking before touching others. It's in the program in bold letters.
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cass
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Post by cass on Jul 27, 2015 2:28:49 GMT -6
oh yeah, the touching this is a massive issue is pagan places and i'm sooooo glad i've started seeing it addressed a lot more in various places. as someone who really cannot deal with getting touched by people who i'm not friends with for brainweird reasons, it makes me feel a lot more comfortable going to events knowing it's frowned upon.
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cass
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Post by cass on Sept 18, 2015 3:40:37 GMT -6
i just read this blog post from a year ago and it goes into my thoughts on the pagan/polytheist communities' treatment of mentally ill/disabled members so well! i've seriously been needing to see this talked about so fully for ages, but i've never really been able to articulate it. so glad this exists omg interestingly, the person who wrote that second post that jess linked to in the op commented on this one, saying something about needing to focus on behaviors rather than illness when it comes to abusers. which, well... sure, but they clearly didn't think about all the things discussed here. and seems to think that mentally ill people should only be leaders in their communities when they've got things under control or something? all of the other comments on the post are pretty good, so if anyone wants to read that too, my reading comprehension rn is shit so not only am i not remembering most of that comment, but i could have completely misread it too. she goes into a bit of detail about her experiences with spiritual crisis and dealing with undiagnosed bipolar, plus all the general ableist fuckery, so be warned before you read. and she talks about being a polytheist with chronic illnesses quite a bit, so this could be a good resource
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Post by Allec on Sept 22, 2015 16:54:45 GMT -6
Oooh I really like that article Cass!
But yeah, I like the idea that spiritual crises caused by mental illness cannot be treated separately from one another? It reminds me of a talk I went to in Many Gods West where the speaker was talking about the need to have spiritual leaders for people experiencing mental crises tied to their spirituality and religion, who could work with therapists and psychiatrists to help the person experiencing the crisis.
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Caelesti
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Post by Caelesti on Sept 23, 2015 19:12:47 GMT -6
The second article...has a lot of things. For one, it doesn't make a distinction between how most people who have a mental illness are more likely to suffer from abuse than to be the causes of abuse. The way the article addresses people with mental health disorders as bothersome, nuances, and people to be "dealt" with isn't helpful. And I don't like the structure of comparing people with mental health disorders to a predator like Kenny Klein. And then this: "However, knowing that her behavior was potentially related to a mental illness allowed me to stop trying to make rational sense of her actions. This is one of the core traps of logical, reasonable people. When you’re reasonable, you expect others to be reasonable. " This comes off as being really ableist... This seems to be positioning neurotypicals as "reasonable" while neurodivergent people are "unreasonable", when the reality is that neurodivergent people tend to just not fit in with societal rules and norms. And they are assuming that the person had some mental health disorder without consulting her." I thought the article had some good points, but agree that way too much was lumped together (like sexual predators) and there was some lack of examination of privilege in accessing mental health care- an educated city-dwelling white woman is going to have an easier time figuring out some way to access & navigate the system. There are plenty of social & ethical problems that happen within pagan groups that are not mental health related. There are others that are, but it's always more complicated than "one mentally ill apple spoiling the pie" so to speak. A lot of what I see is maladjusted behavior and bad habits that no one challenges, because we all need to accept each other- period, no matter what! Though that policy tends to be more geared towards people who are ensconced in a clique- a newer person that has some difficult personality traits is often less tolerated! People with some types of mental disorders, learning disabilities etc. can also be easily manipulated- I was in a cult-like group at one time, with a very authoritarian leader. I think you can accept neurodivergent behavior & traits that are harmlessly eccentric, coping mechanisms etc. while drawing the line at behaviors which are dangerous & unhealthy. I frequently talk to myself, and even if it sounds "crazy"to others, it's a behavior I feel is under control and harmless. There are times when my anxiety gets out of control that my partner, or other loved ones need to talk me out of negative thought spirals, or be steered towards taking a break from things (my partner is, like me also autistic, ADHD, and has depression/anxiety so..yeah takes one to know one) I've had friendships I've had to break off not because I had a problem with the person having mental health issues, but because they refused to deal with them, and it was dragging down my own mental health.
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Post by Allec on Sept 24, 2015 14:51:53 GMT -6
Yeah, I definitely agree that there are behaviors and things with mentally divergent people that shouldn't be overlooked or excused away. There's a delicate balance between understanding what is typical for someone of a certain mental health problem and what isn't. Part of that is lack of education, part of that is stigma, part of that is communication breaking down.
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cass
Junior Member
Posts: 77
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Post by cass on Sept 30, 2015 5:12:22 GMT -6
Oooh I really like that article Cass! But yeah, I like the idea that spiritual crises caused by mental illness cannot be treated separately from one another? It reminds me of a talk I went to in Many Gods West where the speaker was talking about the need to have spiritual leaders for people experiencing mental crises tied to their spirituality and religion, who could work with therapists and psychiatrists to help the person experiencing the crisis. i feel like that's one of the things that i really envy of long established religions. it seems like most, those who fill clergy type roles, helping their congregation/whatever with their mental health needs kind of goes hand in hand with the spiritual needs. obviously that isn't always a good thing, but it'd be nice to have it as an option yknow? to have people trained to deal with this stuff. in pagan and polytheist communities, it often feels like spiritual leaders aren't there for anything beyond teaching and mentoring. that's a pretty big gap we have to fill. because we often have some really marginalized and isolated people in our communities, and finding/affording a good therapist isn't always an option. but then you look towards your spiritual leaders and like 85% of the time, all you find is crap about becoming a shaman or being and indigo child or some shit. i'd really love to dedicate my life to that kind of training and healing but idk if i'll ever be mentally stable enough to manage it :\
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aondeug
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Post by aondeug on Sept 30, 2015 13:45:57 GMT -6
That is honestly one of my biggest issues with the Gaelic thing. I've grown very fond of the Sangha-laypeople system of Buddhism. It's comforting and lovely for many reasons, the hideous problems it births aside. I really wish that sort of thing existed with the Irish thing.
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Redfaery
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Post by Redfaery on Sept 30, 2015 16:19:26 GMT -6
That is honestly one of my biggest issues with the Gaelic thing. I've grown very fond of the Sangha-laypeople system of Buddhism. It's comforting and lovely for many reasons, the hideous problems it births aside. I really wish that sort of thing existed with the Irish thing. This is how I feel as well. I'm part of a VERY polytheistic, mystical tradition of Buddhism. (Tibetan). But Tibetan Buddhism is also very theologically conservative, and there really isn't the same openness of discussion about spiritual experiences one finds in pagan/polytheist spaces.
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aondeug
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Post by aondeug on Sept 30, 2015 20:22:23 GMT -6
Yeah there are sadly just things that I don't feel comfortable with talking about at the wat save with the abbot. Who I feel I could trust with pretty much anything. I'm very grateful to have the monks and the community around though. To talk to and what not. Though usually it becomes being told to sit and meditate for an hour before talking. BUDDHIST PROBLEM SOLVING. SIT UNDER A TREE.
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mitch245
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Post by mitch245 on Jun 11, 2016 16:46:21 GMT -6
Anybody else fall across this article? foreverconscious.com/a-shamans-view-of-mental-illness It was shown to me by a friend who thought I'd like it (I hate it!) and since then I haven't stopped seing it being circulated. The views the author advocateshave been thrown at me by many people too, and I find it so overwhelmingly damaging. Interestingly, most pagan/neopagans/peopleof the esoteric/spiritual community find this view to be helpful and "liberating". They don't understand howawfully victim-blaming and damagging it is (or how inaccurate!). This view makes me so angry I've started writing a critique of it both from a polytheist/spiritual perspective and an academic one... Ugh. Anyone else fall across this? Get overwhelmingly furious and upset about it? Had experiences with it? I'd love to discuss it, if this is the right thread for it...Sorry if this is out of place.
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Redfaery
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Post by Redfaery on Jun 11, 2016 16:56:00 GMT -6
I've never seen that particular article, but it doesn't surprise me. I got a few paragraphs in before noping out REAL HARD.
It's not just ableist it's...kind of racist? I mean, I kinda doubt the indigenous West African healing techniques REALLY involved a "sweep" of the "aura"...
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