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Post by Allec on Aug 24, 2015 20:57:24 GMT -6
Going to preface this by saying: there is no right or wrong opinion in this thread. Just saw some people talking about the nature of gods, and figured we should have a thread for it  To start, I'm going to list Steven Dillon's qualifications for deity that he details in his book, The Case for Polytheism: - Disembodied consciousness
- Immensely more powerful than evolved minds
- Remarkable greatness
Briefly, I'll try to summarize i, ii, and iii.
i. Disembodied consciousness: Basically, a mind that doesn't need or require a body. Dillion goes into some questions this arises, but that's the gist.
ii. Immensely more powerful than evolved minds: Kinda self-explanatory?
iii. Remarkable greatness: Quoting Dillon, "Unfortunately, I have found it challenging to state just what exactly greatness is; but it seems to be that which is deserving of our awe. When you stand before a truly magnificent accomplishment, dwarfed in the shadow of a great pyramid for example, you might be struck by a sense of awe. It is reverence we feel, and we're impressed by it." Dillion goes on to say that this has to deserving of our awe in conjunction with receiving our awe.
That's just Steven Dillon, though. What do you think? Do you agree with Dillon? Do you disagree? How did you come to your conclusions?
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seamu5
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Religion: Gaelic Polytheism
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Post by seamu5 on Aug 25, 2015 5:34:53 GMT -6
I feel like that's the best description on the matter I've ever read. It encompasses all the possibilities of local land spirits, entities and the "major" gods. And treats them all as one.
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aondeug
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Religion: Thai Theravada, Irish polytheism
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Post by aondeug on Aug 25, 2015 12:24:18 GMT -6
Gods are beings born in one of the two godly realms of existence. They may or may not be beings of form. Gods, however they appear, are not just sentient as all life is but also sapient. Gods live far longer than humans do and they tend to be far more physically powerful than us, smarter than us, and have abilities that we tend to not have. The lives of both kinds of gods are marked by bliss more than suffering, though the asura are considered to be one of the unhappy rebirths due to issues with pride and anger which makes Enlightenment for the asura exceptionally hard. They are not all powerful though, nor are they able to avoid the Three Marks of Existence (suffering, impermanence and death, and no-self/no-soul). Gods are not "above" us, however, nor are they necessarily "below" us. While circumstantially they may be stronger than us they are a living being just as we are living beings and just as an ant is a living being.
Gods thus have to prove their worthiness of veneration. You don't just accept any random stranger on the street as a teacher in some field, so why would you accept the same of a god?
It should also be noted that while gods are stronger than humans circumstantially humans are regarded as having just the right levels of pain and pleasure in their daily lives to make Enlightenment more likely. While there are definitely many gods who do understand suffering and do attempt to do compassionate things there are many gods who lead such blissful lives that they just cannot comprehend what suffering is. Even on the most basic level. Also the asura, as I mentioned before, are known for being particularly bellicose and prideful which makes the whole "renunciation of all and serene compassion" thing a bit hard. That is the one "edge" we have over gods, so to speak.
The definition that I use is a cobbling together of various things from Theravadan tradition and Thai Buddhism in particular.
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Post by kalen on Aug 25, 2015 22:05:24 GMT -6
To me, in addition to the 3 qualifications mentioned, deity requirements would also include being truly good and loving, while loving also implies "caring of life." I may not always understand why things happen or don't happen for myself and my close loved ones while the deities remain good and loving in their greater range of influence. Having the other three qualifications without being truly good and loving, well, it just wouldn't cut it for me. For example, on its current trajectory, manmade-derived artificial intelligence may one day have a kind of disembodied consciousness, be immensely more powerful than evolved minds, and achieve a remarkable greatness of some measure, but that won't make it a deity in my book.
One thing I think that is awesome about polytheism is that I may legitimately pray for a deity being helped by another deity. That's a practice other theistic beliefs, with the exception of duotheism, just do not have available with the same expectation of agency among those involved. Something I'd like to see - more about deities in relation to each other. A meditation on Artemis and Apollo together may give a much different result and view of Apollo than a meditation on Apollo and Athena together would. I think there is a huge gap in contemporary reflections on the deities in pairs or groups while each maintains their individuality. Most things written modern either group in a general non-individualistic way for the deities or are single deity focused.
Also, I firmly see deities as much greater than myself or other humans, and gladly so. Might be the concern about hubris with Hellenic-aligned thinking, but I'd be very cautious about claiming anything akin to equivalent status. What I do believe though, is when properly aligned with true deities, being human is good enough as is. To me, it is better to be good enough as the human I am, than horribly deficient as a greater being one would presume oneself as.
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Post by Allec on Aug 27, 2015 2:04:42 GMT -6
Kalen-- Interesting you think that gods must also be good and loving! I don't consider those requirements for deities...especially given some experiences people have, myself included ;] Mostly this is because I don't know if I think there is such a thing as "good" and "bad"...That type of reasoning doesn't make sense to me as a mortal, so I don't extend it to the gods or others. Just my way of operating. Also interesting you don't think AIs could be deities...when my fiance's religious perceptions almost center around that concept He's a pantheist though, so he approaches it from a very different perspective. |
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aondeug
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Post by aondeug on Aug 27, 2015 4:01:33 GMT -6
AI I am honestly curious about given the whole "sentient life is what gets reborn" thing. While we might not make new gods we may make a new realm of rebirth and that is just a really strange thing to think on. Or maybe AI could count as godly beings. Who knows! They'd certainly be their own category of life though.
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Post by kalen on Aug 27, 2015 6:58:30 GMT -6
Kalen-- Interesting you think that gods must also be good and loving! I don't consider those requirements for deities...especially given some experiences people have, myself included ;] Mostly this is because I don't know if I think there is such a thing as "good" and "bad"...That type of reasoning doesn't make sense to me as a mortal, so I don't extend it to the gods or others. Just my way of operating. Also interesting you don't think AIs could be deities...when my fiance's religious perceptions almost center around that concept He's a pantheist though, so he approaches it from a very different perspective. Though I believe in good and bad, interpretations may vary. With my spirituality, I don't believe in hate. Anger, disappointment, illness, sure. But, I don't see anything directly opposing love, that's why it works so well over time, if not always directly. So, I do understand belief/disbelief in commonly attributed words. Should note I have a strong 12-step background at the forefront of my spiritual practice. That may guide my thinking at times about such things. |
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calluna
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Post by calluna on Aug 30, 2015 11:15:24 GMT -6
I feel as though I'm late to the discussion! My bad, I've had a rough few weeks.
I get into this argument a lot, being that my main worship is focused on Scáthach, whom I consider a goddess but most people consider "just" a mortal woman. I've had my beliefs and experiences invalidated a lot by other polytheists, who will defend their communications with deities to the end, but the minute I talk about mine, I'm crazy because Scáthach "was only a woman." My irritation knows no bounds in these situations. I've also had people claim that the fact that Na Bride will have nothing to do with me is because I'm not a "real" GaelPol because I worship a human. To this I always have to look sideways and say: "And how are your ancestors doing with that attitude of yours?"
I don't think a fully loving and good god is necessarily possible, at least not one who focuses on more than one person. What's good for you often means something horrible for someone else. If a god aids you or answers a request, oftentimes someone else loses out. See every "I really need a job" situation.
I also very much believe in hate. I've felt it enough in my life that the idea of it not existing is a little ridiculous. I don't feel that hate directly opposes love, that apathy is opposed to love. For example, I hate my biological parents with every fibre of my being. They can love me all they want, I would still gladly see their names and deeds completely blotted out until no one even knew they existed, and no one cared. That's not anger. Anger is a completely different animal, anger is what comes over me when they insist on commenting on half the Facebook posts I make and wanting to gouge out their eyes with a fork. Anger is about inflicting pain, or about justice. There is passion in anger, and anger is often mistaken for hate. Hate, like apathy, is cold. There is nothing that can be done or said to move you, and any warmth of love from someone who is the target of hate, true hate, just strengthens the cold, and feeds it, like tempering steel.
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callisto
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Post by callisto on Aug 30, 2015 13:09:49 GMT -6
I don't think a fully loving and good god is necessarily possible, at least not one who focuses on more than one person. What's good for you often means something horrible for someone else. If a god aids you or answers a request, oftentimes someone else loses out. See every "I really need a job" situation. Which is along the lines of what I was preparing to post regarding whether the gods are truly "[ fill in given trait or quality]" or is it humans assigning human traits/qualities to non-human forces. Just on a human level as example: I can act in what is, from the recipient's POV, a beneficial or non-beneficial way but does either imply that I'm an inherently "good" or "bad" person? Humans themselves are complex beings, are the gods less likely to be as complex or even more so? |
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Post by Allec on Aug 30, 2015 13:25:05 GMT -6
Gonna probe your brain Calluna  It's not meant to discredit you, but to elaborate on the point of this thread. I'm curious what makes Scáthach a goddess? I'm particularly interested in your point of view since "lore" doesn't address her as one (though obviously that lore is...written by people with other agendas then keeping polytheist lore intact >.>) |
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calluna
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Post by calluna on Aug 30, 2015 14:48:15 GMT -6
Gonna probe your brain Calluna It's not meant to discredit you, but to elaborate on the point of this thread. I'm curious what makes Scáthach a goddess? I'm particularly interested in your point of view since "lore" doesn't address her as one (though obviously that lore is...written by people with other agendas then keeping polytheist lore intact >.>) The piecemeal of he lore is problematic, indeed. The problem we have to ask is...which lore? Yes, the Tain in particular lists her as a human...a human who carries around the Spear of Mortal Pain, which has to be ritualistically used in order to work, and bestows it on a champion. Pretty usual for deity tales, I find. Not only that but that Skye has taken on her name, something usually reserved for very important figures. One of the few to get an entire island Is Manannan and I know we agree that he's a god, and most agree Aine is, with her Cnoc Aine. Further, four non-humans are credited as being her daughters according to various sources: goddesses turned saints Lasair, Latiaran, and Inghean Bhuidhe and Fairy Queen NicNevin, also known as the Gy-Carline. Last time I checked, I hadn't heard of a regular woman having four non-human children (with possibly two different fathers.) Also, there is SPG that she acts as a psychopomp leading of the dead, especially the battle-dead, with modern polytheists claiming to have seen her after battles and bombings, with a very specific role. Oddly, everyone who recognises her as a goddess makes a point of saying she will not act as a psychopomp for the living, she will see them, perhaps speak to them, but will not lead them into the Otherworlds. Also, for me personally, UPG but I consider my own UPG suspect in discussions such as these. (Even though I had never heard of her before that.) Agreeing with Dillon, I'll use his checkist - Disembodied consciousness -- VERY similar if not identical SPG among people who have experienced her, internationally, and me personally I have signs and safeguards in place so I don't get fooled by mischievous ancestors or anyone else. Immensely more powerful: See the training of Cuchulain, including the bestowing of the Gae Bulg Remarkable greatness: If we disagree on this one, there's gonna be a fight. Haha. I think with the Gaelic gods in particular it's hard to differentiate, between mortal and human because they weren't APART like the Greek or Egyptian. Gaels walked with their gods and saw them as ancestors. So I think some have gotten lost. I feel as though with Scáthach in particular, she was more than likely un-deified by people who couldnt remove her from the tale, but didn't like her. In Medieval Ireland an unmarried woman who sleeps with her daughter's lover to teach him, and shown active teaching men in martial prowess and skills is not someone monks would want looked up to in the same way that Brigid or Fand would be respected and shown. Does that make sense? |
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Post by Allec on Aug 31, 2015 11:09:27 GMT -6
Yes! That all does make sense  I completely agree as a Gaelic Polytheist that it's incredibly difficult to differentiate between gods and mortals and demigods and etc due to the nature of the religion. It's one of the things I love about GP, but one of the more frustrating parts to explain to people! |
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It's not meant to discredit you, but to elaborate on the point of this thread. I'm curious what makes Scáthach a goddess? I'm particularly interested in your point of view since "lore" doesn't address her as one (though obviously that lore is...written by people with other agendas then keeping polytheist lore intact >.>)