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Post by Mari Opal on Jan 19, 2015 22:46:05 GMT -6
A frequent question that comes up in various forms is "how literally should I take this myth?" "Did Zeus really rape this one", "Is Apollon a sex offender", "Did Persephone get kidnapped", "Why does Aphrodite hate pretty girls", etc., there are lots of ways to ask this question. And a lot of the answer comes down to personal interpretation, which might become gnosis with enough reflection/input by the Theoi.
Myths can be read as literal -- Zeus is married to Hera. Eros is the son of Aphrodite. Bellerophon rode Pegasus.
But myths can also be read as figurative, as metaphorical -- the goddess of Fertility enters death and re-emerges as New Life. The Soul is joined with Love and becomes Divine. Inspiration comes winged to take artists aloft in thought. In this case, the actions described in a myth -- rape, marriage, death, transformation -- are metaphors for interaction with the divine. The Theoi are not gentle, and when they seized a soul, the transmutation was so thorough that it drew obvious connections to death and dismemberment.
Feel free to discuss here any myths or interpretations that make use of multiple levels of reading -- or that you're confused about! We can talk them out and draw wisdom from them together ^^
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bayoread
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Post by bayoread on Jan 27, 2015 13:17:50 GMT -6
There are just SO many regional differences in the Greek myths that it's hard to pin down. It would be nice to think that the gods took physical form and did all that stuff and I can't really refute that they DIDN'T or don't do that, but for me the myths are usually metaphorical. They were written down by a bunch of old human dudes so of course there's embellishments and add ons and all sorts over the centuries.
As far as versions go, say for example 'mainstream' Greek myth and stuff like Orphism, I think that everything is permitted. Time and realities are mind bending and who's to say that anything is false?
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Post by Mari Opal on Jan 27, 2015 19:59:05 GMT -6
Mmm, what about the myths that don't involve physical form -- I mean, Zeus gets Hera pregnant and she births the goddess of youth, in theory none of that has to be physical, yeah?
(Wanna go ahead and make emphatically clear that I'm not any kind of authority, and I don't really know that questions like "how literally should I take this myth?" have answers. I just thought it would be an interesting avenue of discussion for everyone)
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bayoread
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Post by bayoread on Jan 28, 2015 9:15:18 GMT -6
That's less of a morality tale and more of a family tree sort of explanation.
Hera births Hebe, Eileithyia and Ares. But then you have another version which describes Hera finding a certain flower to become pregnant with Ares. Then there's varying stories on Hephaestus' birth too, so which is correct?
To be honest I don't there is an incorrect answer.
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motherduckr
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Post by motherduckr on Jan 30, 2015 0:50:27 GMT -6
I think it's important to read multiple versions of a myth and not take everything 100% literally. Like I have to remind myself that these myths were conceived a couple thousand years ago by other humans, so obviously they have some bias. I know I've heard of people being asked "But aren't the Greek gods sexist?" and/or being belittled because they worship gods who have rape myths. A lot of times you have to filter out the archaic, problematic cultural norms.
But sometimes, I do like to take myths somewhat literally, because idk they give me some form of comfort. Like that one story where Ares kills Poseidon's son for sexually assaulting his daughter. I like to think of Ares of one of the daddliest of dads, who won't take shit from people who try to mess with his children.
So it really depends for me, I guess I kinda pick and choose.
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demophon
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Post by demophon on Jan 30, 2015 9:04:01 GMT -6
I think of myths as allegorical and metaphorical. Aside from the broad variation of the stories throughout ancient Greece, taking them literally would drain them of their depth and meaning, in my opinion. I think the myths, and the gods themselves, are highly fluid and complex symbolic systems.
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LeighAnne
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Post by LeighAnne on Feb 11, 2015 19:13:48 GMT -6
I know I've heard of people being asked "But aren't the Greek gods sexist?" and/or being belittled because they worship gods who have rape myths. A lot of times you have to filter out the archaic, problematic cultural norms. But sometimes, I do like to take myths somewhat literally, because idk they give me some form of comfort. Like that one story where Ares kills Poseidon's son for sexually assaulting his daughter. I like to think of Ares of one of the daddliest of dads, who won't take shit from people who try to mess with his children. I think that the purpose of myths is to show the character of both the Theoi and what the represent. Take Hera, a lot of people take her as jealous and vindictive. But as the goddess of marriage, that's kind of what is required. Marriage doesn't take well to your husband sleeping with any nymph that passes your eye, it's going to go back and fix things at any cost. Zeus, however, is the god of thunderstorms. They storm and sway and ebb and flow and you never know when they'll end. That's how he is in relationships, he can't stay grounded and storms and moves.
I could go on (especially about Aphrodite) but I think that'd be too much.
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Caelesti
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Post by Caelesti on Mar 25, 2015 21:14:11 GMT -6
The stories have regional variations, and different areas of Greece even while worshiping the same deity would emphasize different aspects. Homer's Iliad & Odyssey, from what I understand took ideas and parts of different stories and assembled them together. So it's more like mythic fanfiction. While Greek mythology was the first I got into, as a pagan/polytheist I have a lot of discomfort with Zeus in particular.
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Post by Mari Opal on Mar 26, 2015 11:29:56 GMT -6
Why?
I ask because, as a pagan/polytheist, I have an immense sense of respect and awe for Zeus, and I'm curious why you'd use that particular qualifier when you're addressing a group of polytheists who fairly obviously do not have that discomfort.
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Caelesti
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Post by Caelesti on Mar 26, 2015 17:26:33 GMT -6
To be fair, I shouldn't single out just Zeus. Just in general, as others were discussing above, the rape myths. Perhaps I do have some un-learning to do of bad scholarship and interpretations of myths. And I probably shouldn't have brought it up, it was rather disrespectful of me. Will do more processing on this outside of the forum.
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Post by Mari Opal on Mar 26, 2015 21:36:57 GMT -6
I'm totally open to talking about it here (though maybe we might make a new thread); I hope that didn't sound like I was trying to run you off. I can be kinda brusque in the mornings though and should probably refrain from posting until I'm fully functional ^^;
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Caelesti
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Post by Caelesti on Apr 2, 2015 18:10:30 GMT -6
I understand, I can get grumpy too sometimes I think I will try re-reading the myths and various interpretations, does anyone have suggestions? I have Karl Kerenyi's Gods of the Greeks, Greek Gods, Human Lives by Mary Lefkowitz.
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Post by Mari Opal on Apr 3, 2015 12:13:35 GMT -6
I've just read Women in Greek Myth by Mary Lefkowitz and enjoyed it, so I'd imagine her other words are also quality ^^
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callisto
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Post by callisto on May 26, 2015 10:08:07 GMT -6
Most commonly the myths are not taken literally. While likely the less educated segments of ancient Greek populations may have thought them to be, the educated tended to view them as allegorical. Either way, the myths are a way of explaining things. Imagine encountering something very real and tangible but completely unfamiliar, like fossils and skeletons of foreign species. Modern man has the knowledge and scientific advancements to understand what they are, but try to imagine reconciling them per ancient people's perspectives. They would have given rise to mythical creatures and the myths surrounding them. For example, the Greek historian Solinus wrote, "Before there were any humans on Pallene, the story goes that a battle was fought between the gods and the giants. Traces of the giants' demise continue to be seen to this day, whenever torrents swell with rain and excessive water breaks their banks and floods the fields. They say that even now in gullies and ravines the people discover bones of immeasurable enormity, like men's carcasses but far bigger." One such instance was the ancient Greeks' discovery of a pre-historic thigh bone dubbed the Nichoria bone. It's thought they unearthed it in the Megalopolis basin, known in antiquity as the 'Battleground of the Giants'. However it's not a giant's thigh bone, it came from a woolly rhino: link: Prehistoric Fossil May Have Inspired Greek MythsSimilarly, it's possible the discovery of elephant skulls contributed to myths of the Cyclops: Generally modern Hellenic polytheists see myths as allegorical. Even so, there are many approaches to the study of myths. Here are a few online introductory sources, folks can also find several books on the various methods of interpretation. Ways of Interpreting Myth A basic intro to the various ways to approach myth interpretation. faculty.gvsu.edu/websterm/ways.htmIntro to Structuralist interpretation en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Classical_Mythology/StructuralismInterpretations of Greek Mythology A collection of essays by various scholars. theol.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/root/1987/102/
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Post by kalen on May 29, 2015 22:02:53 GMT -6
Great response callisto. Appreciate the wooly rhino and elephant bone dialogue within it as well. I like it when we can simultaneously talk about ancient myths and recent scientific evidence findings at the same time.
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