yellowdog
Newbie
Posts: 10
Religion: universalism
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Post by yellowdog on Aug 4, 2016 2:00:35 GMT -6
Hello,
normally identify as a christian because of neighborly love and having felt Jesus sometimes. But I am also a polytheist in that I accept all the other gods too and revere them and don't reject them. Now I am wondering, what is left of Jesus then? I found that in the entire New Testament, unlike in portions of the old one, there is no mention that other gods do not exist. Could Jesus have accepted them too? The bible also says that Jesus abolished the jewish law and proclaimed that law-fulfilling is through love, not through trying to fulfill the duties of the mosaic code. I see enormous liberty in that.
Now my real question, could it be that there is a god for the gods too? Is that the jewish secret? That the many deities that exist on this world pray to an overlord God type and that this is the god that sent Jesus to us? That could harmonize theology rather nicely. The old testament also at places spoke about the gods in the plural and actually calls their God the "god of gods". If we take that literally then Yahweh is simply the greatest deity, but since he is love he is not fighting with other gods, unlike the jews had thought.
I also wanted to research whether there is a difference between a god and a deity. In that sense, a god would be a god that has a body too in his realm. And that a deity would be someone like Yahweh or Allah. And that these gods and deities resemble beings in the air and beings who come from other stars in their light.
I find that if I search Jesus in this way I could come to enormous enlightenment. That Jesus is the messiah of ALL GODS, in that they all revere him as the son of the chief deity in the pantheon of the world. Someone who wants to bring mankind and its gods together in peace and love. And that there is an afterlife in an upper dimension of worlds and planets that all keep together in peace. I have often missed my deceased father who died without having faith in Jesus. Nowadays I think he was brought to the upper dimension to live there with all the other humans, and that there is no hell, that hell is an invention of people who wanted to bring fear into religion. That seems pretty obvious to me.
Is such thought accepted with you? What do you make of Jesus? I think it's too easy to consider the jewish experience a complete failure. There must have been a deity involved with them, albeit the jews were too zealous about him and didn't go by faith but by strict rules that excluded the other gods. What do you think?
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sasswolf
Newbie
Posts: 15
Pronouns: They
Religion: Reclaiming witch, Gallo-Brittonic polytheist
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Post by sasswolf on Aug 4, 2016 5:25:22 GMT -6
Starting with the semantic question first, there's no real difference between god and deity except that one is gender-specific and the other isn't. "Deity" is just a Latin-derived word that covers the same ground as three Anglo-Saxon-derived words: "god", "goddess" and "godhood". English has a lot of examples like that because of the different linguistic influences that gave birth to it or were incorporated along the way. That doesn't make the rest of your ideas invalid, though.
On the more substantial theological question, well, it's possible. Haitian Vodou in its most traditional form sees it a bit like that, except that it considers its "gods in the plural" to be more like ancestral spirits or saints than like gods (but that probably derives partly from a need to make slaves' religious practices appear as innocuous as possible to their Catholic owners, back before the Revolution; some of the African religions it drew on were more of the "High God and a court of subsidiary gods" type). I don't see it that way myself, though. I don't find the Jewish G-d particularly admirable, and at the same time I don't think it's my place to tell Jewish people that they've misunderstood him. And since I don't think I need a messiah, it would be blasphemy for me to claim that my gods and goddesses do.
I don't think you'll find many polytheists who do see it the way you suggest. It doesn't personally bother me that you see it that way - everyone's relationships with the deities are different, and they may accept something from you that I don't think they'd accept from me - but just so you're prepared, you're likely to find that some polytheists take exception to it. The boards here tend to be quite well-mannered, but there are some polytheist places where you probably shouldn't say this kind of thing unless you have excellent flameproof underwear on ;-)
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Post by Allec on Aug 4, 2016 11:15:10 GMT -6
Be careful of speaking of the Jewish people as though they are a relic of the past, yellowdog. They and their religion is much alive. And as druidsass pointed out, it isn't our place to tell the Jewish people how to interpret their g-d and their holy text. The idea that Jesus was the savior to the polytheistic deities is an interesting one. But it isn't a view that I share. Like druidsass, I don't really find it necessary for there to be a Messiah in the way Jesus was/is. Part of that is because I don't believe in sin, part is that I don't believe Jesus to be a god. (And both those reasons are also why I'm not Christian haha.) I also don't really have a problem with conflicting theologies, so I don't personally seek to reconcile the varying world religions. If one religion views deities as these all powerful, detached beings and another religion sees deities as being very involved in human affairs... I think both can be true, even if they contradict. If that makes sense? I think there's room in the world for conflicting theologies and religions and philosophies and ideas. But the idea you have yellowdog is really intriguing! Maybe unconventional, but if it works for you then awesome
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mitch245
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Posts: 32
Pronouns: He/Him
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Post by mitch245 on Aug 7, 2016 15:58:30 GMT -6
Hi! I would like to point out that, intellectually, I find your idea interesting, but also to be one that can be very offensive. From a monotheistic perspective this can be difficult to understand, because it is so much taken for granted that there is 'obviously' going to be a being/spirit/entity above all others. Not so for polytheism. Polytheists (in my experience) tend to take great pride in the uniqueness and powers of their divinities, and this idea (while attempting to encompass other divinities) feels like an attempt at putting them down as less than the monotheistic deity. I do not take offense and am not trying to be aggressive, I just want to gently warn you. Also, I've studied some of the Hebrew Bible in my degree at University, so I'm interested by some of your points, and would like to politely argue against them. For the 'god of the gods' translation- could you source this please? I haven't heard of this before. Which translation is it from? In my experience, the word 'elohim' that is used often by certain writers of the hebrew bible was plural so it would literally would be "godS", meaning a godly court/what some today would refer to as a pantheon. Could this be what you're referring to? As for the Yahweh of the bible being the greatest... it's hard to imagine when he gets squarely defeated by the other deities in the hebrew bible. In one instance the city defending against Yahweh's army performs a human sacrifice, and 'cause them to flee in disgust' which is an embellished form of defeat. As for Jesus being the savior of gods (arguing as a scholar, do you have any textual evidence for this?) as a polytheist I'd have to ask- from what? In the Hebrew Bible, there is no evidence of hell, or of a terrible afterlife. Considering the early beginnings of Christianity (where Christians were very aggressively offensive towards Roman polytheists which in turn brought about punishment) I find it hard to think of Jesus as a peace-keeping figure amongst the deities. Your concept seems based very much upon modern conceptions of Christianity and I have researched (slightly) the beginnings of Christianity, so for me this is all very conflicting. Hell, though it was not part of jewish (speaking the era of early/beginnings of Christianity or around Christ's time of life) beliefs at the time, was certainly there in Christian theology as evidenced in the Apocalypse of Peter. From a more personal perspective, I understand what you're getting at. Myself, having a Wiccan base for my spirituality, I believe in a Great Mother that loosely oversees the deities, but that is different from your notion of a "god of the gods" in the sense of the power dynamics and the differences. What you will often see in the pagan/neopagan/Wiccan movement is a higher deity that acts as head, but is made of the same stuff as the other deities, or is more of a family figurehead that gave birth to the other dieties. It does not have the same power level implications, nor engender the same relationships between the deities and this higher figure, as one where the deities would pray and venerate their own 'god'. So maybe this exact relationship is what puts your view apart from others in this community? Not that this is bad at all! But if you were wondering, that's what I see as making it so very different even though it is still a polytheistic worldview. Again, I have to disagree on you about the notion for hell being only a tool. Christianity/Islam were not the only ones who had a hell. Zoroastrianism did as well, and Kemetic beliefs did have the potential destruction of the soul. Rather, the notion of hell can be seen as a counterbalance to the bliss of heaven, which was a relatively new concept. Few other religions has such a 'tadaaa! Awesome ecstatic afterlife!' as Christianity professed to give. Consider the Sumerians, who could never drink or eat once dead and lived in a dusty world (according to some myths) It was not hell, but certainly not heaven either! As for Jesus, I personally do not think much of him, though I really do enjoy the New Testament (love it!) and many Catholic Christian figures. I would suggest you read some academic books on the different authors of the New Testaments' versions of Jesus. Some writers, through subtle details as whether jesus goes up the mountain (more on high) or down the mountain (to be with the sick and crippled) in one specific story try and protray different versions of him. So this may be very useful for you in understanding what face of Jesus you're tapping into- or which books of the bible to look to for inspiration. You may also like to read up on some scholarly articles on Metatron and the Jewish angels, as this gives a notion of different levels of deities and how the jews saw interactions with the divine. In some beliefs, angels were so pure that if you were impure you'd die! So it's very interesting! All in all, your views are interesting and fun food for thought! I do not mean to sound aggressive, it just itched at me and I wanted to give you a well-thought out answer, but I tend to sound offensive when trying to explain myself. Good luck with everything!
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yellowdog
Newbie
Posts: 10
Religion: universalism
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Post by yellowdog on Aug 8, 2016 9:18:27 GMT -6
Hi there,
first of all, I don't feel offended by anyone of you. Tolerance is key to life, I think, and that even moreso for polytheists. What is important for me is to view the gods as all being benevolent beings who don't mean harm to mankind.
Jesus for me is the son of the cosmos whom he called Father. He followed Yahweh too but usually just in order to lead a good jewish life. But he had the intention of abolishing the mosaic law (as a prerequesite to making universal forgiveness possible). He is a Savior for those who can't help themselves and whom the other religious people, including the Jews, often forgot in their religious life. In that sense, Jesus is the son of love.
I'm also Wiccan in the sense that I believe the gods all have a wife for them, and children. But I also stay christian in that Jesus is my favourite deity. Though he also has a wife in Maria Magdalene, and he probably has children with her in Heaven.
The great thing for me is that I think we all have an afterlife and can live with the gods there. I think the afterlife is a universal place where all go, and Jesus didn't open it up or something. But he came to be resurrected in the body and that is really special. He is a peacemaker for me, and again, a lover of those whom others do not love. And he is enlightened and doesn't set himself up against other gods, yet that was a failure of early christianity that put their bets more on zeal than on love. But love is better than zeal.
Thanks for your replies and may your gods keep you safe!
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