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Post by Allec on Feb 21, 2015 18:27:48 GMT -6
Spurred by this tumblr ask that devo fielded, I think it'd be really interesting to discuss the concept of "New Gods." In Gaelic Polytheism, there is no question that numerous of deities have been lost to us thanks to the monks writing down the myths and Christianity in general being introduced to the Gaelic cultures (not to completely complain--we wouldn't have anything if the Christian Monks didn't take the initiative to write stuff down.) So there might not even be "New" gods so to speak but gods we don't know about in primary sources. I think the topic is interesting. What are your thoughts on it?
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Post by saintfelicity on Feb 24, 2015 21:59:42 GMT -6
I agree! In the case of Gaelic Polytheism, the races in the mythology - the Tuatha Dé Danann, the Fomorii, and all them - are just that, entire races of beings. There could be hundreds and hundreds that we don't know about. I don't see why they wouldn't continue to have children, develop new relationships, and so on. I'm sure this could apply to a lot of different polytheisms.
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seamu5
Junior Member
Posts: 55
Pronouns: Barbarian
Religion: Gaelic Polytheism
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Post by seamu5 on Feb 24, 2015 23:26:50 GMT -6
Not only could these gods kept up having children, new gods would probably start popping up in places where new cultural ideas have taken hold. We could have gods/spirits in our computers in this era of modern Animism. Hell, we could even think of A.I. as gods one day. That doesn't even take into account the apotheosis of everyday people. Nationalist heroes, the founding fathers, etc.
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Post by devo on Feb 25, 2015 20:10:46 GMT -6
I personally believe that each pantheon is likely missing at least a few gods, if not more. But as I also said in the ask, I also can't imagine that somehow all of the baby making and creation stopped because humans stopped paying attn. So I definitely think probably every pantheon has at least a handful of both no-longer-remembered gods as well as new gods.
My big wondering is- how on earth do we establish the means to figure out and discern when new gods are knocking, and how to we learn to incorporate those new deities into modern practices.
-Devo
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aondeug
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Post by aondeug on Feb 25, 2015 20:44:49 GMT -6
Now I am thinking of Manannán or someone having kids and foster kids. Raising more kids. And this makes me very happy. I really want to be a parent, which is probably part of why. Kids and parenting is just. Very important to me. I've had numerous little brothers to take care and help raise and the like.
Which reminds me of something someone said? I am not sure who. Christ. It was this post on tumblr about the relationship between Manannán and Lugh. Manannán being the serious and fairly traditional old Irish fisherman. And then radical cool surfer boy Lugh. Lugh surfing is the best thought in general really.
But Manannán raising more little ones. And others too, including many whose names we don't know. This is a good thought.
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Post by Allec on Feb 25, 2015 23:40:27 GMT -6
(Lugh is totally a surfer.) And I like Devo's question about what to do if a new deity would appear. It'd take a lot of discernment, which would be hard for most people. I wonder if how people are approaching Deerpocalypse could be a way to see how new deities or unknown entities are approached? As for incorporating...Gaelic Polytheism has the advantage of not having a strict cosmology, so there isn't much worry to how to "fit" a deity into the worldview. They'd be approached much like any other deity or entity. I don't know if it'd be so easy for other religions, though.
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seamu5
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Posts: 55
Pronouns: Barbarian
Religion: Gaelic Polytheism
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Post by seamu5 on Feb 26, 2015 11:12:20 GMT -6
Which reminds me of something someone said? I am not sure who. Christ. It was this post on tumblr about the relationship between Manannán and Lugh. Manannán being the serious and fairly traditional old Irish fisherman. And then radical cool surfer boy Lugh. Lugh surfing is the best thought in general really. Hi that was me on my polytheist blog, Sachairi Mac Cabá on Tumblr. I come up with many weird associations and kinda "Fanon" aspects and ideas with the gods. Like Gaelic Hyrule where Lugh is Link, Balor is Gannon, and Zelda is sometimes Bríghid.
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aondeug
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Post by aondeug on Feb 26, 2015 12:13:32 GMT -6
You are the greatest person. Let it be known. Granted I might be biased given my love for parents and kids and my quasi-religious feelings for surfing. But I clearly have the best sort of bias.
Also Lugh as Link is so perfect. Which means Lugh also gets a rad boat that talks to him to ride around in. Also a horse too but the King of Red Lions is the coolest form of transport Link has ever had. The train comes in second.
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Liadine
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Post by Liadine on Mar 24, 2015 3:03:46 GMT -6
Spurred by this tumblr ask that devo fielded, I think it'd be really interesting to discuss the concept of "New Gods." In Gaelic Polytheism, there is no question that numerous of deities have been lost to us thanks to the monks writing down the myths and Christianity in general being introduced to the Gaelic cultures (not to completely complain--we wouldn't have anything if the Christian Monks didn't take the initiative to write stuff down.) So there might not even be "New" gods so to speak but gods we don't know about in primary sources. I think the topic is interesting. What are your thoughts on it? This - particularly the 'gods we don't know about in primary sources' problem - is very near and dear to my heart (...deer to my heart) given that I've been devoted to a nameless antlered god for over a decade now. I've spent a long time researching, calling him by different names, and digging deeper, but the best guess I've been able to come up with after all this time is still 'probably a local British deity of some kind whose worship wasn't recorded by history'. I'm of the very strong opinion that a) being nameless/forgotten doesn't mean those deities have 'died', and b) there's a chance that some people getting pulls towards slightly vague sense of deity may have been thwapped by those nameless gods. In my own case, I originally thought Himself was Cernunnos (who doesn't have many primary sources himself), and it took about a year before I started figuring out that... nope, wrong horned god.
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Banned User
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Post by Banned User on Aug 21, 2015 12:50:18 GMT -6
(Lugh is totally a surfer.) And I like Devo's question about what to do if a new deity would appear. It'd take a lot of discernment, which would be hard for most people. I wonder if how people are approaching Deerpocalypse could be a way to see how new deities or unknown entities are approached? As for incorporating...Gaelic Polytheism has the advantage of not having a strict cosmology, so there isn't much worry to how to "fit" a deity into the worldview. They'd be approached much like any other deity or entity. I don't know if it'd be so easy for other religions, though. I don't think discernment is difficult for most people - humans use it every day. We just give it added meaning in religious contexts (which, yes, there is a specific usage within Christianity, but it's not that different from discernment in general). We often are amazingly bad at defining it within religious contexts; for this reason, many people probably think they're bad at it since we can't define it well. Discernment is just 'judging' or 'judging well'. There are a few basic things to consider when it comes to new gods: - Are they part of a religious structure or established group of gods?
- What are the circumstances surrounding their appearance/revelation?
There are many other questions to pose, though far too many to really delve into with this reply... However, those first two are very vital.
The first is important because a god within a religious structure or tradition is quite different than one without. There are going to be certain behaviors, associations, preferred offerings, symbolism, etc. I mention this because the gods I work with didn't have an established tradition or structure outside themselves when they were revealed. New or rediscovered gods from Irish, Welsh, Kemetic, Hellenic, Roman, etc. traditions are, in theory, going to have similarities and connections to the gods already in that pantheon. If there is a basic or universal offering or behavior within a tradition and the god balks or rejects it, they may not be part of that 'group'. Rather than focusing on what a god says focus on behavior. Figure out if there are omens you feel are associated with them. Symbols that pop in your mind when thinking or interacting with them shouldn't be completely out of left field if they're part of an established tradition.
For any sort of new gods, you should record this stuff. Our memory is hardly reliable. Memories are very malleable and change, unfortunately, easily and can rewrite themselves based on the knowledge we now have. Having records can help you compare and figure out what you thought then and how it's changed. It can also help you figure out if you're making it all up. Gods do have a consistency to them. Records can also note when exactly an idea shifted from one thing to another and why. All of that is important.
Now, if a gods not part of an established tradition...that is a whole other issue and more complex.
The circumstances around the appearance/revelation are important. Group think is totally a thing that happens, and it can happen with new possible gods. That's one reason why I let new gods 'rest' for a while after a person brings them up in the Otherfaith. I encourage people to push at the first Four Gods in the faith as well, since everyone experiences the gods differently. When a new gods is brought up, though, we discuss our ideas on it then back off. Either intentionally or not. If there's that 'divine spark', as some say, that god is gonna pop up again, nudging against us in whatever way we experience the gods. So if a group is really super totally sure this new god is a thing - take a month off and see if the god keeps poking at you.
A few things to consider as well: sockpuppets are a thing, but they seem to behave in pretty consistent ways (either entirely praising or entirely denigrating); people make up details about both old and new gods in order to control others in a group (and this may cause 'thoughtforms' or the group is simply so invested in what they're being told they never question it - seriously, questions are one of the cornerstones of discernment); and finally, do you care if a god is 'naturally' created, in that they are born from other gods or completely external from humans, or do you not care if they are 'made up' by people (a la pop culture paganism/polytheism/witchcraft)?
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Post by Allec on Aug 23, 2015 18:46:57 GMT -6
Good insights Aine
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