Windy
Newbie
Posts: 31 
Pronouns: She/Her
Religion: irish polytheism
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Post by Windy on Feb 25, 2015 9:31:45 GMT -6
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Post by Allec on Feb 25, 2015 23:43:33 GMT -6
It doesn't always have the words I'm looking for, but I really like using Forvo. |
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Windy
Newbie
Posts: 31
Pronouns: She/Her
Religion: irish polytheism
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Post by Windy on Feb 26, 2015 7:41:03 GMT -6
Cool! Thanks!
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Post by saintfelicity on Feb 27, 2015 7:51:34 GMT -6
I like this Irish synthesizer a lot! I'm not sure how well it handles potential exceptions to rules, but I find it to be a good benchmark. You can switch to English labels in the top right. My favorite way to use it is to plug in the word or phrase and play it at relatively quick speed to hear the overall sound, then I switch it to slow and speak along with it a few times, then speed it up til I'm comfortable getting my mouth around the sounds. |
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veritywhitethorn
Junior Member
Posts: 60
Pronouns: She/her
Religion: Celtic polytheist
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Post by veritywhitethorn on Feb 28, 2015 5:10:00 GMT -6
Ooh! Useful. Irish would be a lot easier if it sounded like it looked. I mean, what is the point of all those consonants if you don't pronounce any of them?? I know a tiny smattering of Welsh and it makes MUCH more sense  |
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wickedlittlecritta
Full Member
A tempest in a teacup
Posts: 169
Pronouns: she/her
Religion: Gaelic polytheist
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Post by wickedlittlecritta on Feb 28, 2015 9:18:30 GMT -6
Irish: where the letters don't count and the pronunciation's made up! Edit to add: I just remembered that I'd seen these two sites recommended before so: link one link two |
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aondeug
Full Member
Posts: 141
Pronouns: She/Her/Hers, He/Him/His
Religion: Thai Theravada, Irish polytheism
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Post by aondeug on Mar 6, 2015 21:03:42 GMT -6
A thing that I've found very helpful is to learn the rules of why things happen in Irish. For example an "h" after a consonant means that said consonant has been lenited, softened. Which is why the "t" of maith isn't pronounced. Lenited t in Irish is unsounded, whereas lenited b is sounded as what English speakers would read as being "v" or "w" depending on. Something. I am not sure what that something is yet, but I think it might have to do with the location of where the lenited b is in the word.
Another thing that I really need to get better at is learning all the rules to why the digraphs and trigraphs are pronounced how they. In most cases it seems to be a boundaries thing. "Oi" next to n, m, or mh for example has a value of /I/, which is the i in bit in most dialects of English. In a lot of cases these things aren't diphthongs, which is what tripped me up when I first started?
A diphthong being something like the word eye. A gliding together of vowels. In lots of cases these pairs of vowels are actually being used to represent a single vowel, and part of the purpose appears to have to do with the broad and slender consonants from what I'm guessing?
This doesn't at all mean it's not a pain in the ass. Because it is. Just that there's a method to the madness that I think would be easier to learn if we picked it apart. Or at least it is for me.
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Ciar Lionheart
Junior Member
And I love you like a mountain.
Posts: 89
Pronouns: Ey/Em or He/Him
Religion: Irish Polytheist
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Post by Ciar Lionheart on Mar 7, 2015 6:29:19 GMT -6
A thing that I've found very helpful is to learn the rules of why things happen in Irish. For example an "h" after a consonant means that said consonant has been lenited, softened. Which is why the "t" of maith isn't pronounced. Lenited t in Irish is unsounded, whereas lenited b is sounded as what English speakers would read as being "v" or "w" depending on. Something. I am not sure what that something is yet, but I think it might have to do with the location of where the lenited b is in the word. It's depending on whether the BH is broad or slender! You can tell which one it is based on whether the vowels surrounding it are A, O, or U (broad) or E or I (slender). A broad BH sounds like W, slender like V. Most of the non-lenited consonants have the same sound (or very similar sounds) when broad or slender, while most lenited consonants have a different sound. One non-lenited consonant that does change is S—a broad S sounds like the normal S in English, while a slender S is like our SH. Thus sé and sí = "shey" and "shee," while slán = "slawn" and conas = exactly as it looks. Sometime when I'm not about to go to bed I'll break out the pronunciation notes I made in the class I took years ago and transcribe them for you guys. |
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Windy
Newbie
Posts: 31
Pronouns: She/Her
Religion: irish polytheism
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Post by Windy on Mar 7, 2015 7:38:37 GMT -6
There is a phrase that I've read, on duolingo and on other sites: caol le caol agus leathan le leathan. It means broad with broad and slender with slender. Which means that if a consonant is surrounded by two vowels, the vowels but either both be broad, or both be slender, which is why sometimes you pronounce dipthongs and sometimes you don't.
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aondeug
Full Member
Posts: 141
Pronouns: She/Her/Hers, He/Him/His
Religion: Thai Theravada, Irish polytheism
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Post by aondeug on Mar 7, 2015 13:18:29 GMT -6
Oh yay. That was going to be my second guess about it since the broad and slender thing seems to be very, very key to how things are said? I get very caught up positions though. Thank you for clearing that up with me.
And it would be really appreciated if you could share notes on that. A lot of what I've puzzled out is guessing and a few things I've learned in books and the like.
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Windy
Newbie
Posts: 31
Pronouns: She/Her
Religion: irish polytheism
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Post by Windy on Mar 7, 2015 18:47:47 GMT -6
Well, irish has 8 diphthongs: 'ui', 'io', 'ea', 'ua', 'ia', 'eo','ao', 'ae'. So if you see a vowel combination that isn't one of those, chances are you only pronounce one of the vowels, though I'm not sure how you choose which vowel to pronounce. That's where forvo.com comes in handy.
The diphthongs are pronounced as follows (approximately, I am new to irish, so I am definitely fallible)
ui: uh-ih
io: ih-oh
ea: yuh
ua: uh-ah
ia: ee-uh
eo: yoh
ao: ee
ae: eh
I hope this helps, and it could totally be wrong in some places, so please let me know if you find something different from more reliable source
I change the pronunciation of "ea" and "eo" as I think the "e" in those sounds becomes a glide vowel with the "y" sound"
also, "e" at the end of the word after a double "nn" becomes "yuh" like in bainne (milk) pronounced bah-nnyuh. (the i after the a is a function of caol le caol agus leathann le leathann)
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aondeug
Full Member
Posts: 141
Pronouns: She/Her/Hers, He/Him/His
Religion: Thai Theravada, Irish polytheism
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Post by aondeug on Mar 10, 2015 22:43:48 GMT -6
Wikipedia's page on Irish orthography has a list of phonemes present in Irish, and it has a section specifically about the various di and trigraphs Irish uses. Each of the vowel combinations gets its own little entry, with all the different potential phoneme values based on...boundaries. I suppose you could call it. So things like oi next to n, m, and mh being /I/ shows up and has examples of words with it. But oi being /i:/ when next to syllable final -nn and word final -nn also shows up in the list. As do the other phoneme values. Here's the page. And the section about di and trigraphs in particular. That section isn't sourced though it seems to match up with things I've heard. I'm kind of hoping I can find something in a book or some paper or something that is a bit more...Understandable and user friendly for people who haven't absorbed shit like what open back rounded vowel means. If I do find one I'll definitely share it. |
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veritywhitethorn
Junior Member
Posts: 60
Pronouns: She/her
Religion: Celtic polytheist
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Post by veritywhitethorn on Mar 11, 2015 20:12:29 GMT -6
Could someone tell me—I'm deaf and can't properly hear the voice on the duolingo app—is the 's' in irish words (eg agus, bricfeasta, slán) pronounced 'ss' or 'sh'? Or does it depend on the words and what's coming next? I can't for the life of me differentiate...
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Windy
Newbie
Posts: 31
Pronouns: She/Her
Religion: irish polytheism
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Post by Windy on Mar 12, 2015 8:10:38 GMT -6
It depends on the vowels. If there is an 'e' or an 'i' (both accented and unaccounted) either before of after the 's' it is pronounced 'sh'. Any other time it is pronounced 's'.
Example: sí (she in Irish) is pronounced the English pronoun 'she'.
Uisce (meaning water) is pronounced ih-sh-ceh
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veritywhitethorn
Junior Member
Posts: 60
Pronouns: She/her
Religion: Celtic polytheist
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Post by veritywhitethorn on Mar 14, 2015 23:32:28 GMT -6
Oh, that's fantastic, thank you! I'll be able to remember that I think!
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