boywonder
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Post by boywonder on Feb 27, 2015 0:51:14 GMT -6
I was having a discussion on my intro thread about what makes one set of gods more "real" than another. Specifically with the idea of gods from "fictional" sources. Why is it culturally - or socially? - more acceptable (or more acceptable within Pagan spheres) to worship a pantheon of gods from ancient times - Greek Gods, Gaelic gods, etc. - but if you worship something like...Hylian gods, you're suddenly pretending or not taking things seriously? Not that I'm saying anyone here thinks that or that people are not accepting. Just as a discussion topic, what makes x thing MORE real? I'm a very skeptical person, having shied away from any spirituality for years. I find it just as hard to believe in any god from any source, regardless of how long a tradition has existed, so I don't really understand why one set of gods gets more validity. Hence the discussion!
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ayaad
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Post by ayaad on Feb 27, 2015 1:33:55 GMT -6
I don't think it's the age that causes them to be more widely accepted. I think it's more of a matter of cause and effect.
When it comes to historical entities, the idea is that they came into existence, and then people made stories about them. However they came into existence (whether they have always existed, been born at some point, whatever), they were there before the stories. With pop-culture deities, it's the other way around. Unless you believe that an existing entity manipulated someone into creating stories about them (and I'm not really familiar with pop culture paganism, so that may or may not be a theory that people actually use), the stories came first.
However, I must admit some ignorance on the subject. I don't entirely understand pop culture paganism. Since it's not something that directly affects my practice, I've never really researched it. I just tend to view it from my own experiences as a writer. I create characters. I know that these characters are coming from my own head, and I can track my thought process on a lot of them to see what things in my life caused them to become who they did. No matter how realistic they might feel to me, I also know that they aren't actually alive when I finish with them. What might happen afterwards depends on your views regarding the creation of entities. For someone who doesn't believe that worship or belief or thought can cause something to come to life, pop-culture entities cannot exist because they were never 'real' and can never become 'real'.
Again, this is just my understanding. I don't know enough on the subject to form a firm opinion, so I tend to figure that so long as people are respectful then it doesn't really matter to me what they believe. (Also I'm about to go to bed when I should have done so a while ago, so I'm not sure how clear I'm being. Sorry.)
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wickedlittlecritta
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A tempest in a teacup
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Post by wickedlittlecritta on Feb 27, 2015 17:21:43 GMT -6
I think a lot of it has to do with the age=value thing that most of western society has going on. Which is bull. Maybe a little defensive back lash, since pagans/polytheists in general get accused of making things up/being delusional, ect, and they're scapegoating. "No, we're SRS BSNS our gods have HISTORY not like those OTHER guys worshiping Cthulhu!!1!" Which is also bull. Another part is probably that fictional characters/gods were never intended to be worshiped, but hey, Death of the Author and all. Personally, the only characters of mine that I'd be uncomfortable with somebody worshiping are the ones that would be uncomfortable with that themselves. (And the ones that do not need that ego boost lol) The goal is to make them as real to other people as they are to me, so if they resonated with somebody so much that they wanted to incorporate them into their religion? Wow. And thinking about this, I realized I basically revere Peggy Carter as a culture hero. So.
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GreenAsSin
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Post by GreenAsSin on Feb 27, 2015 19:22:55 GMT -6
To me it seems like the age does have something to do with it, as well as the lost knowledge that comes with. We have creation myths and such, but we don't necessarily know how old religions and their deities got their start. If these beings always existed and gained themselves a following over the years by making themselves known or if they were thought into existence by people that needed them and gave them their power over time. Whether the deities inspired stories or the stories inspired deities. We just can't know for sure.
That's one aspect of pc paganism that I've seen - the idea that thought has power and that willing a being into existence makes us capable of creating new gods and spirits. But because we know where these characters came from it can make it seem silly to try and give power to something like the Hylian goddesses by relating to them as real deities or to take something like a Pokemon and using what it represents to an individual and treating it like an existing spirit. And taking a character from a popular show runs the risk of people accusing someone of taking their fangirling too far and further playing into the 'not real pagans' issue. We know these characters were created as entertainment, not as deities or spirits, so trying to turn them into the latter can seem odd or obsessive.
There also seems to be the idea in some groups within pc paganism that existing spirits are using the cultural icons as masks and mediums to be heard through, rather than being created. For example, Loki using Marvel!Loki as a guise to reach people and gain followers. People take the attributes from a character that really speak to them and create or discover an entity that embodies those characteristics (such as power, wisdom, and courage from the three Hylian goddesses) and incorporatig them into their practices through characters they recognize and feel a connection to. A lot of these characters have sort of grown up with people and impacted their lives in some way and it's easier to feel a connection to them than it is to connect with an older, more established deity that they have stories about but no real connection with. But because they're expressing these beliefs through pop culture and through characters that so many people recognize and know the origin of it tends to be looked own on. People see someone using a character like Dean Winchester in their practices and quickly dismiss is as some kind of childish obsession without taking the time to understand why someone is including him or to what extent and in what context.
I'm not going to claim to know everything about this as I've only casually browsed pop culture paganism, but this is what I've picked up form it so far.
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Post by Allec on Feb 27, 2015 23:59:43 GMT -6
I've read a lot of the resources out there on PC Paganism. There are certainly multiple approaches as to why or how PC Paganism comes to be, and I think each can be valid to an individual PC pagan. As for why people look at PC Paganism as being made up, and not "historical" religions, seems to generally be that age does give validity. Which is fair in the short run, since you may have someone who is taking fandom too far with how they approach a video game. But I have known people (Chaotic specifically) who has been part of the PC pagan field for over a year at the very least--if not years. At that point, the UPG behind one's experiences are valid in my opinion. I do think creators have a huge sway in if a PC practice can be considered valid, because if a creator comes out and says "STOP"--you need to stop. This is a pretty clear indicator that they don't view their entities as gods or their stories as lore, so that puts a clear break between the stories of X-Creator and, say, Gaelic lore. You also have the question of what makes something folklore and myth in the first place. With Gaelic Polytheism, I tend to generally believe the stories happened as exactly as told because the Otherworld can be a tricky place. Like the story of The Táin seems completely plausible to me. And maybe that's because I have seen reality shift depending on what is going on. I've seen people who I have known contort and look completely different. Anyway. There's also the idea that ancient cultures--all people believed in the same thing. So you have the entire Gaelic culture believing in Gaelic lore as fact, but not every fan of Marvel believing in the lore of Marvel. So that also puts a wrench in things. But you also have modern-day Gaels who may not believe in the Gaelic lore as fact, so that seems like a mute point too. BASICALLY? My opinion is that something is real as long as someone says and believes it is. That's the only marker I need.
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Skywalker
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Post by Skywalker on Feb 28, 2015 23:27:39 GMT -6
I think the "problem" for me is that for characters, we know who created them and when. Like, Deadpool was created by Rob Liefeld in 1991. And I guess I just don't understand why someone would worship that. Also, it seems like that means we can essentially create gods. I'm a writer and if someone decided to take one of my characters and worship them, does that mean I created a god? Did Stan Lee and Jack Kirby create a bunch of gods? Or are the people who create these characters being manipulated by actual deities whose names have been long forgotten and being put into a modern form? Or even gods that we all have heard of trying to speak to a modern audience?
The other thing that makes my first instinct to back away is simply my bad experience with fandom and when someone says they worship someone better known as a comic book character (or whatever) my first thought is that they're one of those people I don't want to associate with. It can come off as an over-obsessive fan, which is basically a red flag for me. And I think my bad experience with overly-enthusiastic fans is why I've had a tendency to think that pop culture paganism is less serious, and that doesn't make any sense coming from me.
My first religion was Jedi. And while we didn't worship Obi-Wan or anything like that, a lot of my religious ideas were from a work of fiction. And I could always make the excuse that it's totally different because George Lucas pulled the Jedi order from existing religions and philosophies, but I also totally wore Jedi robes and learned how to fight with a lightsaber. And even today, I do ridiculous sports-related rituals and my city practically has a sports pantheon and my family has an altar to Peyton Manning, so really, PC paganism should not seem unusual to me at all. And on some level, it makes a lot of sense because a lot of modern characters are probably a lot easier to relate to, and I think that's probably especially true for younger people. If the internet was more of a thing when I was younger, I bet I would have been a PC pagan, or more of one than I already was (I don't know if the Jedi religion is considered part of it). Although in my case, I think that was more of a stepping stone before I found my right path, but it probably would have lasted longer.
So although my initial reaction to it is that it makes no sense, when I think about it more, it does. But there are still a few things my brain doesn't want to understand about it, but that's how things usually are with me. Hopefully it'll be better in a few years.
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boywonder
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Post by boywonder on Mar 1, 2015 15:08:41 GMT -6
Admittedly, I don’t understand as much worshipping like Dean Winchester as a god. But I do more understand worshipping “fictional” gods as such (like the Hylian goddesses etc). Why is this legend just considered fictional and the Christian creation myth is valid? I think those of you that have mentioned the age thing are probably on the right track - something that has been around for a long time seems to be more recognized as worthy or worship, and something that appeared in writing in your lifetime or in the past century (in the instance of Tolkien, for me, since I was definitely not born when he started writing) or whatever. I think for some people it’s probably hard to reconcile “but I know who wrote this down” with the mysticism of myths that have been passed down for centuries. As for people creating gods, I mean, did the people who wrote down ancient myths (when they were eventually recorded) create the gods, or did the gods urge the writing through their actions or godphone or whatever? Obviously we can’t know the answers to these questions. I think it’s an interesting idea to me in regards to modern gods: who is to say that there aren’t younger, newer gods, that existing gods didn’t keep having children or creating new ones or whatever it is they do? Allec I’m really in agreement with you here: I would never invalidate something else someone believed. As long as they’re not hurting anyone or being awful, if they want to worship something I don’t understand or believe, I’m totally fine with it. (But I’m still not convinced I’m not making everything up anyway so like who am I to judge or invalidate anyone else’s beliefs!)
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cass
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Post by cass on Mar 1, 2015 15:44:08 GMT -6
i think it can also be looked at with the idea we have going on in another thread, that these are new gods, and that they decided to reveal themselves to the world through fiction. the way we tell stories is completely different now than it was when our myths came into being. oral storytelling isn't really a thing any more, and idk, i feel like that changes a lot of things. of course it could be asked why don't these new gods just reveal themselves as gods in the first place instead of fictional characters? but there have been new gods who reveal themselves as gods, and it tends to not go over so well... i suppose in a world full of monotheists and non-believers, the gods could have decided that being more subtle is the better way to go. there will obviously be writers who are against this idea, but in that case, as allec said, we respect their wishes and back off.
some fiction is even set up in a way that makes it entirely plausible imo. the theology of the Discworld, that a deity comes into being through belief, perfectly lends itself to this. and while i have problems when that kind of theology gets used in regards a lot of our gods (like in American Gods, bleh), i'm not sure that, as a polytheist, i can completely rule it out as a way for gods to be created? the deification of humans has always been a thing, and i guess i kind of see this as similar.
all of that said, i think the biggest thing for me is that pop culture has become just culture to a lot of people. religions around the Jedi and Middle Earth have been around for ages now, and i don't really see pc pagans being any different. and tbh, i'd much rather have these people find spirituality in a culture they've grown up in, even if it's pop culture, than appropriate other's cultures because they feel like they don't have one. people making gods out of their favorite fictional characters is a lot less likely to do harm than deciding they wanna dabble in Native religions or voodoo. i have a friend who'd been very much the pokemon-type pagan and would call on random gods for things. when i said that i didn't feel comfortable moving in with someone who would call random gods they have no relationship with into our house, we ended up making a religion around the Doctor and it was actually really awesome. so idk, i say let em do their thing.
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Post by Allec on Mar 1, 2015 22:01:34 GMT -6
I'm more curious about what makes older mythology--like Greek, Kemetic, Egyptian--real? We have mixture of views on PC polytheism, but (unless I'm mistaken) boywonder 's original question involved both old and new religions. What makes something like Greek Mythology real, for example? For example, I remember growing up Catholic being told that Greek mythology and Egyptian and so forth was that only Christian God was true and everything else was just silly. ...of course, as a hard polytheist, this isn't true for me anymore. My personal belief is that if someone can tell me they experienced it, I have no doubt it's real in some fashion. How it's real or why it's real can vary in answer, but the question of is it real is yes.
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boywonder
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Post by boywonder on Mar 1, 2015 22:43:16 GMT -6
I'm more curious about what makes older mythology--like Greek, Kemetic, Egyptian--real? We have mixture of views on PC polytheism, but (unless I'm mistaken) boywonder 's original question involved both old and new religions. What makes something like Greek Mythology real, for example? For example, I remember growing up Catholic being told that Greek mythology and Egyptian and so forth was that only Christian God was true and everything else was just silly. ...of course, as a hard polytheist, this isn't true for me anymore. My personal belief is that if someone can tell me they experienced it, I have no doubt it's real in some fashion. How it's real or why it's real can vary in answer, but the question of is it real is yes. I grew up in a Wiccan tradition, but my mother was never strict about pantheons the way I see many people are. My mother to this day has strong relationships with a few gods - not all of which fall into one pantheon. So I was taught that all beliefs are valid, as long as you're not hurting anyone with them. As a teenager I became a pretty vehement atheist, but I was always of the school of thought that what people believe is fine as long as it's not hurting anyone or being forced on anyone else. But Allec is right and my question pretty much was - what makes something real in the first place? Why are Kemetic gods real? Or Norse? Or not? I don't have any insightful answers since to me, I don't know what I feel is real and what isn't (though I'm not a strict one-pantheon kind of person, which I feel like makes me "wrong" somehow).
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seamu5
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Post by seamu5 on Mar 4, 2015 7:02:32 GMT -6
This quote from Terry Pratchett feels appropriate; "As they say in Discworld, we are trying to unravel the Mighty Infinite using a language which was designed to tell one another where the fresh fruit was."
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Post by Mari Opal on Mar 16, 2015 15:55:57 GMT -6
There's an element as well of confirmation -- one person saying "X god uses the thunderbolt as His symbol" is just a person with an opinion. An entire civilization saying "Zeus is all about the thunderbolt" is a whole lot of people's experiences lining up and matching. That should lend credibility. A lot of Pop Culture Pagans don't have anyone else's experiences to compare their own to, which raises some serious issues in terms of discernment.
Not in any way an attempt to discredit PC Paganism, I just didn't see that point brought up explicitly. It's not just *age*, it's the cumulative experiences and confirmations that a much older religion has had time to accumulate.
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aondeug
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Post by aondeug on Mar 16, 2015 18:44:45 GMT -6
You have worded something I've been wanting to say but couldn't think of how to word. I now feel really dumb. But yeah this is a big thing for me in regards to why I put faith into certain things. There's the age of things and the sheer amount of people reporting the thing. And then there's direct personal experience for me personally.
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Post by Allec on Mar 16, 2015 20:42:08 GMT -6
I see what you mean! Though I would share that some larger PC Pagans are able to share UPG and are slowly building that discernment, but agreed--it's hard to have a lot of discernment without a lot of people.
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Post by saintfelicity on Mar 18, 2015 8:51:29 GMT -6
That completely makes sense. It's really neat to think we could have the opportunity to watch new religions grow as more people are able to find each other and collaborate!
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