leithincluan
Junior Member
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Pronouns: she/her
Religion: Gaelic Polytheism and modern British druidry
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Post by leithincluan on Mar 24, 2015 1:11:14 GMT -6
I'm quite nervous about calling a group of people the 'chosen people' of a deity... That's just how I feel though, possibly as a result of my close connections with Judaism and my history with Christianity.
I am certainly very cautious about living religions as compared to ones that are not practiced anymore. However, I don't think it's not appropriation anymore just because it's a dead culture (e.g. Kemticism) or the gods aren't widely worshipped anymore (Ireland). I have seen some appalling cultural appropriation and misuse of Irish cultural aspects, by people who have often never been to Ireland and have no idea how Christian a nation it is or how their actions would he seen by others. Mockery of the way modern Irish people understand a particular deity, for example. And when I explain how it's not necessarily appropriate to talk about Irish folklore and culture in the way that some Gaelic polytheists do, I either get shouted at for giving people no choices ("We can't go near so many cultures! How can you tell us not to go near yours!" - which is a misrepresentation of what I've said), or I'm told it's OK because the person had a great-grandfather who once went to Ireland, or I'm simply ignored.
I'm not disagreeing with Mivi or anyone else. Just trying to explain how I, someone from the Anglo-Irish community, feels about the focus on colonialism and appropriation around some cultures but not others. Designating some as closed and some as open does not necessarily help with this. I think we need more discernment than that, for a start. And there are different gods involved in each case, some of whom did indeed appear much more widely than just to one culture, while others were taken around the world potentially whether they liked it or not (again thinking Kemetic). Each deity and culture presents different issues. India and Hinduism are *not* the same as Buddhism, and it's another form of Western imposition of ideology to suggest that they are. (I say as a religious studies scholar who gets irritated sometimes by how modern Pagans treat many other religions.)
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Post by Mivi on Mar 24, 2015 4:28:03 GMT -6
I'm quite nervous about calling a group of people the 'chosen people' of a deity... That's just how I feel though, possibly as a result of my close connections with Judaism and my history with Christianity. I am certainly very cautious about living religions as compared to ones that are not practiced anymore. However, I don't think it's not appropriation anymore just because it's a dead culture (e.g. Kemticism) or the gods aren't widely worshipped anymore (Ireland). I have seen some appalling cultural appropriation and misuse of Irish cultural aspects, by people who have often never been to Ireland and have no idea how Christian a nation it is or how their actions would he seen by others. Mockery of the way modern Irish people understand a particular deity, for example. And when I explain how it's not necessarily appropriate to talk about Irish folklore and culture in the way that some Gaelic polytheists do, I either get shouted at for giving people no choices ("We can't go near so many cultures! How can you tell us not to go near yours!" - which is a misrepresentation of what I've said), or I'm told it's OK because the person had a great-grandfather who once went to Ireland, or I'm simply ignored. I'm not disagreeing with Mivi or anyone else. Just trying to explain how I, someone from the Anglo-Irish community, feels about the focus on colonialism and appropriation around some cultures but not others. Designating some as closed and some as open does not necessarily help with this. I think we need more discernment than that, for a start. And there are different gods involved in each case, some of whom did indeed appear much more widely than just to one culture, while others were taken around the world potentially whether they liked it or not (again thinking Kemetic). Each deity and culture presents different issues. India and Hinduism are *not* the same as Buddhism, and it's another form of Western imposition of ideology to suggest that they are. (I say as a religious studies scholar who gets irritated sometimes by how modern Pagans treat many other religions.) I've edited that to (hopefully) better wording. My apologies. That is a good POV to bring to the table. I can only speak from my own experiences (being a part of a closed tradition, being PoC of a race that's been colonized, fetishized, imperialized, appropriated, etc etc) and that's what's driving my end of this debate. I did want to mention to this part of your post: some of whom did indeed appear much more widely than just to one culture, while others were taken around the world potentially whether they liked it or not (again thinking Kemetic).I don't think that's the best example. Kemeticism was imperialistic, so they wanted to be taken around the world and adopted as The Religion/Culture. |
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leithincluan
Junior Member
Posts: 85
Pronouns: she/her
Religion: Gaelic Polytheism and modern British druidry
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Post by leithincluan on Mar 24, 2015 4:51:57 GMT -6
That is a good POV to bring to the table. I can only speak from my own experiences (being a part of a closed tradition, being PoC of a race that's been colonialized, fetishized, imperialized, appropriated, etc etc) and that's what's driving my end of this debate. Indeed, and I'm very grateful to hear your perspective. The perspectives of PoC Pagans aren't heard enough. They should challenge the rest of us, however difficult and uncomfortable the results for us and our thinking and practice. Our complacent comfort is rarely a good thing. Ireland was colonised too, and colonial issues remain, especially in the UK. I'm part of a diaspora community that left for economic reasons that stemmed from British colonialism, and which encountered systematic racism here for generations, the effects of which still linger, particularly in class and social mobility ways. Irish identity is still exoticised by 'plastic paddies' today, who are happy to claim Irish ancestry and buy tat on St Patrick's Day, but don't know anything about Irish culture or history. The Pagans among them sometimes treat sacred cultural stories like their own property and do ridiculous things to them, while saying utterly stupid and uneducated things about a fictional version of Ireland. But I am not a PoC, and that is definitely the difference here. Irish people are in this odd position of being somewhere between a post-colonial and a neo-colonialist position. That does help me to remember that post-colonialism is a complex thing. Thanks again for your perspective, mivi, and for making me think more deeply about this. Your point about Kemeticism is also an interesting one, and in some ways it helps make my point. Yes, Kemeticism was a very open religion, and the people had a hand I'm spreading their stories and gods around the world. But *today* Egypt is a poor, not very powerful country, populated by Muslims, many of whom may have a number of different issues with white people worshipping their ancient gods. When I see the Nisut calling herself by that title, with all its connotations, and being installed as such at the *pyramids*, I see a strong potential for - well, if not cultural appropriation, then definitely cultural insensitivity. We can't just say 'Kemeticism is open' and no longer worry about the effects of our actions on modern people in other countries. (Does what I'm saying make any sense? I am having Asperger's-related trouble wording today. Apologies.) |
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Redfaery
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Posts: 72 
Pronouns: she/her/hers
Religion: Buddhist Polytheism
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Post by Redfaery on Mar 24, 2015 6:57:37 GMT -6
It's worth noting that I'm not Chinese in any way, so my opinion on that is pretty whatever. I passed on what a couple of Chinese people (aware of sj issues) told me. If half of the Chinese population said "sure, worship our gods" and the other half said "no please don't, we're sick of white people taking what's ours because orientalism, exotification, etc" I am going to listen to the ones that say no. Because people are completely fallible. Who's to say your experience with 산신 is true? What's more likely is your desire to work with an ~exotic~ deity and that creates dreams and signs you think you're receiving. Fohrer effect imo. But like someone said above, there are respectful ways to give them offerings (e.g. when invited to do so by a person involved with that religion, when at an appropriate temple) but a line is crossed the moment you start talking as an authority figure about the god whose culture you don't belong to. And yeah, the "but your god clearly came to me, they like me!" Is definitely a white privileged thought. Some systems are closed and some are not. Hinduism is not closed, and neither is Buddhism. Shinto is really not closed either; there are branch shrines on the West Coast and in Hawai'i. I've been to Japan. I've worshiped in the shrines. The Japanese I met were frankly damned happy to meet a gaijin who didn't treat their religious site like a tourist attraction, and their religion as some sort of quaint curiosity. ETA: Ugh...that sounds really whitesplainey. I can't think this morning. I'm so sorry. I'll try to write out something later that doesn't sound horrible  |
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Post by Allec on Mar 24, 2015 12:34:58 GMT -6
I think what some people are missing in Mivi's responses is that she's coming from her religious point of view as a Korean practicing Korean Folk Magic and religion. And from that point of view, she's bringing up how she would react if a white person said a deity from Korean culture was calling to them.
Generally speaking, I don't think the reasoning "a deity said it was okay" is applicable when a lot of interpretations from deity can be so murky, because as Mivi points out people are fallible.
If someone was saying that Brighid told them to get drunk on St Paddy's Day and wear offensive Irish shirts, I don't really care if Brighid said that or not because that type of stereotyping of the Irish is harmful to the living culture. Likewise, a non-Korean living outside of Korea saying that a Korean deity is approaching them and wants pizza slice offerings can/does further the oppression of the Korean culture if the person does not take time to address the culture the deity is from.
It is also worth mentioning that the power dynamics depend where you are. In the States, most areas are completely free from any oppression towards Irish immigrants. In Europe, that isn't quite the case. Being in Japan and white, you are a minority in that country. Yet in the States, Japanese people are oppressed. So that's something to also be aware of--just in general.
I think the moral is to talk to the people of the culture, really listen, and be prepared for the answers.
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Post by Mivi on Mar 24, 2015 13:41:22 GMT -6
It's worth noting that I'm not Chinese in any way, so my opinion on that is pretty whatever. I passed on what a couple of Chinese people (aware of sj issues) told me. If half of the Chinese population said "sure, worship our gods" and the other half said "no please don't, we're sick of white people taking what's ours because orientalism, exotification, etc" I am going to listen to the ones that say no. Because people are completely fallible. Who's to say your experience with 산신 is true? What's more likely is your desire to work with an ~exotic~ deity and that creates dreams and signs you think you're receiving. Fohrer effect imo. But like someone said above, there are respectful ways to give them offerings (e.g. when invited to do so by a person involved with that religion, when at an appropriate temple) but a line is crossed the moment you start talking as an authority figure about the god whose culture you don't belong to. And yeah, the "but your god clearly came to me, they like me!" Is definitely a white privileged thought. Some systems are closed and some are not. Hinduism is not closed, and neither is Buddhism. Shinto is really not closed either; there are branch shrines on the West Coast and in Hawai'i. I've been to Japan. I've worshiped in the shrines. The Japanese I met were frankly damned happy to meet a gaijin who didn't treat their religious site like a tourist attraction, and their religion as some sort of quaint curiosity. ETA: Ugh...that sounds really whitesplainey. I can't think this morning. I'm so sorry. I'll try to write out something later that doesn't sound horrible I'm not talking about Buddhism, Hinduism or Shinto. your response "Well the Japanese I met up with were totally cool with it" is using them as a scapegoat for your own privileged desires. Asian Americans have a VERY different experience growing up, so we are more likely to be aware of cultural appropriation issues than our non-American counterparts. And frankly I don't understand why you're bringing up Japanese people and Shinto when we know there are open branches? Pretty much what Allec said. |
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jack
Newbie
Posts: 42 
Pronouns: he/him/his
Religion: fictional reconstruction
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Post by jack on Mar 24, 2015 14:51:16 GMT -6
I think what some people are missing in Mivi's responses is that she's coming from her religious point of view as a Korean practicing Korean Folk Magic and religion. And from that point of view, she's bringing up how she would react if a white person said a deity from Korean culture was calling to them. I think that we may be speaking at cross-purposes in this thread, then, since the OP was talking about a Hindu deity, and I was largely responding to a sentence about Chinese gods, and Mivi was talking about Korean gods (spirits? I can't type the symbols on my phone and I haven't studied Korean so I apologize if "gods" is not the correct translation.) In that case, Mivi, I apologize for misunderstanding you. |
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Post by Mivi on Mar 24, 2015 16:04:14 GMT -6
I think what some people are missing in Mivi's responses is that she's coming from her religious point of view as a Korean practicing Korean Folk Magic and religion. And from that point of view, she's bringing up how she would react if a white person said a deity from Korean culture was calling to them. I think that we may be speaking at cross-purposes in this thread, then, since the OP was talking about a Hindu deity, and I was largely responding to a sentence about Chinese gods, and Mivi was talking about Korean gods (spirits? I can't type the symbols on my phone and I haven't studied Korean so I apologize if "gods" is not the correct translation.) In that case, Mivi, I apologize for misunderstanding you. Gods and spirits is fine. My response to your responding to me about Chinese gods was in regards to how I, as a Korean, would feel about someone not-Korean getting at my culture's gods. Me and my Chinese friends (who I passed along their sentences here) are East Asian-Americans, so I am relaying their thoughts while bolstering it with my own in regards to my own culture as well. Because it's a similar situation. Everyone looks to East Asia as some exotic wisdom-wonderland and takes and takes whatever they want. This includes our gods. |
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Redfaery
Junior Member
Posts: 72
Pronouns: she/her/hers
Religion: Buddhist Polytheism
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Post by Redfaery on Mar 24, 2015 17:52:18 GMT -6
Everyone? Does that include me, because I worship Benzaiten-sama? Does that include Jack, because he honors Guanyin? I understand that there is exotification of East Asian cultures. I've seen it. Ask me what I think of "Memoirs of a Geisha." But that doesn't mean we're all approaching it that way. I frankly also find it erasive of my individual experience to dismiss me as simply another privileged person. I'm white. Yes. That has given me an *incredible* advantage in life. But I'm also queer, nonbinary, autistic, and disabled. I'm not a yuppie with a Whole Foods yoga mat and a COEXIST bumper sticker. And I'm honestly wondering how safe this place is really going to be for me.
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Chev
Junior Member
Struggling to learn and grow.
Posts: 97
Pronouns: She/Her
Religion: Oh, ain't that the question
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Post by Chev on Mar 24, 2015 19:49:25 GMT -6
The specific mentions were as examples, jsyk.
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Post by Allec on Mar 24, 2015 20:10:32 GMT -6
There's an article I read about dreadlocks that I find really applicable to what you're experiencing, Redfaery. I'm going to preface this that I don't want to get into the discussion of dreadlocks--as I'm not a black person--but this article " Dreadlocks: Should White People Have Them?" by Jenée Desmond-Harris brings up this idea about "racing" yourself: This is what is happening when you honor or worship a deity that is from a non-White culture. This is something you have to understand. Mivi or any other person who is from East Asia doesn't get to see your experiences or reasoning. They see how you are presenting yourself currently. Right now, you aren't listening to Mivi's experiences living in a white-dominated society and how that society treats her culture and other East Asian cultures. Moreover, I'm curious why you are accusing Mivi of saying you aren't allowed to worship Benzaiten. She never said that. What she did say was that if a non-Korean worshiped a Korean god, she would be uncomfortable as well as concerned to their motivations. She brought that up because she has other Asian friends from different cultures who share similar concerns. I want you to know that this is a safe place and I personally will not allow anyone to get away with insulting your gender, sexuality, autism, or disability. But I also won't allow oppressive behavior towards cultures like those in East Asia. I am not saying you are behaving in an oppressive manner, but you are treading close by implying your desire to honor a deity is more important than the collective people of that culture. If that is not your implication, please share what your concerns are. |
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Redfaery
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Posts: 72
Pronouns: she/her/hers
Religion: Buddhist Polytheism
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Post by Redfaery on Mar 25, 2015 5:51:44 GMT -6
I was very upset yesterday, and I apologize. I misunderstood Mivi's intentions. I should have stepped away from this conversation. I was not implying that my desires are more important than those of an entire culture. My autism makes me have a hard time interpreting people's words, and this is what has happened here. I was under the impression that Mivi was saying that ALL East Asian religions were closed, and I was disagreeing.
I apologize.
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Post by Allec on Mar 25, 2015 8:25:17 GMT -6
It's okay. I'm SO glad you realize what Mivi's intentions are and that there is more understanding going on now.
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Post by saintfelicity on Mar 25, 2015 9:36:05 GMT -6
I just caught up on this discussion - Mivi, thank you so much for your contributions!
This may be implied but I do want to explicitly state: whether or not a culture is open or not, is not an on-off switch to green-light your practice. And, even when your relationship with your deity is legitimate, white people still have to take responsibility for how PoC see what they're doing; none of us have the right to say that PoC cannot side-eye our situation in particular. It's something that you absolutely must accept if you're going forward with practicing in a culture that has been mistreated and colonized, and is part of acknowledging your white privilege.
(I do want to state that frankly, I really DO NOT like these debates about what is and isn't open. It's an aspect of what you can and can't touch, absolutely, but it's extremely reductive because something that's "open" can still have critical nuances you're not getting if you're not carefully looking at the history.)
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Redfaery
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Posts: 72
Pronouns: she/her/hers
Religion: Buddhist Polytheism
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Post by Redfaery on Mar 25, 2015 10:16:46 GMT -6
I just caught up on this discussion - Mivi, thank you so much for your contributions! This may be implied but I do want to explicitly state: whether or not a culture is open or not, is not an on-off switch to green-light your practice. And, even when your relationship with your deity is legitimate, white people still have to take responsibility for how PoC see what they're doing; none of us have the right to say that PoC cannot side-eye our situation in particular. It's something that you absolutely must accept if you're going forward with practicing in a culture that has been mistreated and colonized, and is part of acknowledging your white privilege. (I do want to state that frankly, I really DO NOT like these debates about what is and isn't open. It's an aspect of what you can and can't touch, absolutely, but it's extremely reductive because something that's "open" can still have critical nuances you're not getting if you're not carefully looking at the history.) This is SO true. I think there is also more nuance to whether something is "open or closed" than just "yes or no." I mean, for example: I know of African Diaspora religious houses that will accept people of my socioeconomic status who are sincere seekers. That doesn't mean someone like me should go. I will not practice any African Diaspora religious practices or folk magic. Period. Because I know where my privilege came from. I'm not just white. I'm a white Southerner whose great-grandparents owned slaves. I have benefited from white privilege in immediate and concrete ways. My mother's parents had PoC do all the housework. It would be ethically and morally wrong for me to participate in a religion that was created by people who were being subjugated by my ancestors...often as a response to that subjugation. So...um. I hope this doesn't come across whitesplainey or braggy. I just am not comfortable when someone suggests I do something from hoodoo or African American folk magic because...well....I know where I came from. And I know it wouldn't be right for me to do that, when my family is the very definition of "white privilege." |
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