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Post by Mivi on Mar 25, 2015 12:47:17 GMT -6
I'm sorry, I definitely wasn't trying to imply that all east asian traditions are closed. Thank you for the apology and thank you Allec for explaining what I was trying to say more clearly.
Totally agree with you, there are so many nuances we are missing.
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Post by Mari Opal on Mar 27, 2015 11:02:14 GMT -6
Maybe I missed this in the cross-purposes some people wound up talking at, but is it not reasonable to say "If you feel called to a deity, find a member of that religion (and race/ethnicity/nationality if applicable) and ask them if this is appropriate for you to explore"? Terms like "open" and "closed" may be a good starting point to tell someone "Don't get attached to that idea" or "You can't really do that thing", but, as has been discussed, they oversimplify things and fail to capture the full shade of meaning.
Cultural context exists whether a culture is closed, open, or somewhere in the middle. It's entirely possible to be *disrespectful* without being *appropriative*, which is one of the failings I see in the strict open/closed dichotomy.
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Chev
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Post by Chev on Mar 27, 2015 13:30:45 GMT -6
I... think? this has been glanced upon? Not entirely positive, but definitely not so plainly, and I think that's a very reasonable way to approach it, but I'm not sure if my words are still coming from privilege? I have intention of visiting St. Louis' temple to also ask if it's appropriate for one to come into Hinduism, so I think it would be a good idea to ask a known... leader? of the corresponding congregation, rather than simply a member/follower, as mentioned previously somewhere.
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Redfaery
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Post by Redfaery on Mar 27, 2015 13:35:50 GMT -6
This was indeed discussed. I think Mivi pointed out that the problem of asking just anyone who happens to be the faith in question is that opinions are going to differ within the culture as a whole. The person you ask might be fine with it, but what if they happen to be unaware of the issues, or just not of the general consensus? You could very well be fine by *them* but still behave in a manner that is offensive to many other people.
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Post by Mari Opal on Mar 27, 2015 19:14:33 GMT -6
My experience -- and obviously this is anecdotal and may have been *only* my experience -- is that if you ask a member of a religion how to go about learning about it, most of them will point you at a religious authority. I should have been clear that that was what I meant, though: someone who is actually trained/initiated in the religion as an authority figure.
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Chev
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Post by Chev on Mar 27, 2015 20:11:16 GMT -6
Ahhh, okay, sorry x3 Thank you for the clarification though :3
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seamu5
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Post by seamu5 on Mar 28, 2015 21:22:51 GMT -6
I just caught up on this discussion - Mivi, thank you so much for your contributions! This may be implied but I do want to explicitly state: whether or not a culture is open or not, is not an on-off switch to green-light your practice. And, even when your relationship with your deity is legitimate, white people still have to take responsibility for how PoC see what they're doing; none of us have the right to say that PoC cannot side-eye our situation in particular. It's something that you absolutely must accept if you're going forward with practicing in a culture that has been mistreated and colonized, and is part of acknowledging your white privilege. (I do want to state that frankly, I really DO NOT like these debates about what is and isn't open. It's an aspect of what you can and can't touch, absolutely, but it's extremely reductive because something that's "open" can still have critical nuances you're not getting if you're not carefully looking at the history.) This ^^^ There's a fine line between respectful and being "that person". You know, the one white person with the dreads. Who shows up to every kind of religious event there is, and is "so super one with the earth". A good example is Irish culture and Gaelic culture are both open (Gaelic because it's really a dead culture and died with the Tudors and Cromwell's invasion (may Kelpies feast on his innards!)) but there's still that fine line between respectful and " Darby O'Gill and the Little People". Just because you know some history and "pog mo thoin" won't stop the Irish living in Ireland and abroad from side-eyeing when they see you. I'd also like to add that no deity is always 100% nice and loving 100% of the time. They have bad days too and will go out of their way to fuck your shit up. Just because a deity gets your attention doesn't mean it's going to be good. My rule is if three things happen in quick succession, there's a message. Otherwise it's just an anomaly. As the old saying goes, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." |
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Post by Mari Opal on Mar 28, 2015 21:48:27 GMT -6
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Post by Mari Opal on Mar 28, 2015 21:50:23 GMT -6
I'd also like to add that no deity is always 100% nice and loving 100% of the time. They have bad days too and will go out of their way to fuck your shit up. Just because a deity gets your attention doesn't mean it's going to be good. My rule is if three things happen in quick succession, there's a message. Otherwise it's just an anomaly. As the old saying goes, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." I'd say you're making the same kind of inaccurate generalization here, actually. There are deities whose entire role is to be supportive, kind, loving, etc. There are deities who have zero attested bad days in all of recorded history. Your point that a deity does not necessarily have cuddly intentions is a good one; however, "every deity is sometimes malicious" is just as fallacious a statement as "every deity is kindhearted and sweet". Not every religion has the same standards or expectations of their deities. |
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redvulture
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Post by redvulture on Mar 28, 2015 22:02:47 GMT -6
I will point out that tumblr often takes hard line stances to these issues that may or may not work for everyone. Personally, as I try to reclaim Irish traditions I have come to the conclusion that Irishness, if you will, is not in my mind a skin color or ethnicity issue. I think anyone who does the proper, genuine cultural work can be known by our gods. Of course as an Irish person in the U.S. I am more free to say so, since I do not have to deal with racial prejudice, but we did have a colonization and genocide history that we are still living with the fall out from. When the religion is one that is primarily centered in an overall oppressed community, such as people of color, it becomes more complicated. That said not all religions from primarily PoC regions are closed to outsiders. Plus I don't feel a deity would choose incorrectly. That said, I think if the religion is strongly associated with an oppressed people it behooves you to do due diligence with the human community as well as the spiritual. Feeling the pull to give offerings to the Creator that many Native American tribes believe in for example is one thing. Doing it with respect and within the proper historical context is only something you can achieve with the aid of the people themselves. You have to be humble and you have to ask what the community needs from you, if anything, and you have to be okay with their answers. I know plenty of people both white and of color that worship outside of their cultural context, but it's about how you approach it and who you learn from. I am also Kemetic and I am almost one hundred percent Irish. As part of this I do a lot of anti racist work and learning, so I can understand why the symbols of this religion are so important in modern race theory. I think my understanding of Ma'at involves social justice inherently. Other people of color that I know who have indigenous traditions they incorporate in to their practice have said that they wouldn't be open to someone just wanting to learn those traditions piece meal, for example someone who just wants to know the rituals but doesn't want to learn the language, or the stories, or what have you. Picking and choosing culture in a superficial fashion is part of what leads to appropriation.
Religion is also an interesting topic because often religion is meant to be spread. The religion in AE reached across a not insignificant area and was followed by people of several different ethnicities. That said it's always good to proceed with caution, but I do think it's possible to practice outside of one's cultural context respectfully in many cases.
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aondeug
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Post by aondeug on Mar 28, 2015 22:40:25 GMT -6
I'd also like to add that no deity is always 100% nice and loving 100% of the time. They have bad days too and will go out of their way to fuck your shit up. Just because a deity gets your attention doesn't mean it's going to be good. My rule is if three things happen in quick succession, there's a message. Otherwise it's just an anomaly. As the old saying goes, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." I'd say you're making the same kind of inaccurate generalization here, actually. There are deities whose entire role is to be supportive, kind, loving, etc. There are deities who have zero attested bad days in all of recorded history. Your point that a deity does not necessarily have cuddly intentions is a good one; however, "every deity is sometimes malicious" is just as fallacious a statement as "every deity is kindhearted and sweet". Not every religion has the same standards or expectations of their deities. Yeah I'm going to have to agree with this thing. I've had to unlearn the idea of deities being supportive, merciful beings of detached loving kindness as being the only sorts worthy of veneration, actually. Guanyin is going to gouge her eyes out for you and she's going to do it calmly and lovingly. She is not a goddess of fucking your shit up, but one of staunchly defending and practicing the Dhamma and telling things like anger to get bent. There's definitely a lot more to her, but that is very important to things. Got shit to do. Mindfully and with equanimity. |
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Redfaery
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Post by Redfaery on Mar 29, 2015 6:35:49 GMT -6
I'd say you're making the same kind of inaccurate generalization here, actually. There are deities whose entire role is to be supportive, kind, loving, etc. There are deities who have zero attested bad days in all of recorded history. Your point that a deity does not necessarily have cuddly intentions is a good one; however, "every deity is sometimes malicious" is just as fallacious a statement as "every deity is kindhearted and sweet". Not every religion has the same standards or expectations of their deities. Yeah I'm going to have to agree with this thing. I've had to unlearn the idea of deities being supportive, merciful beings of detached loving kindness as being the only sorts worthy of veneration, actually. Guanyin is going to gouge her eyes out for you and she's going to do it calmly and lovingly. She is not a goddess of fucking your shit up, but one of staunchly defending and practicing the Dhamma and telling things like anger to get bent. There's definitely a lot more to her, but that is very important to things. Got shit to do. Mindfully and with equanimity. THIS. This so much. One thing I've learned about Sarasvati, in both the lore and my experiences of her, is that when she gets angry, watch out! But the flip side of that is that she just doesn't get angry over petty shit, or because she's having a "bad day." She gets angry because you (general you) have really done something wrong and you need to be punished for it. And then she is like the river goddess of the Vedas, breaking the backs of mountains. |
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aondeug
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Post by aondeug on Mar 30, 2015 14:37:11 GMT -6
Yeah I'm going to have to agree with this thing. I've had to unlearn the idea of deities being supportive, merciful beings of detached loving kindness as being the only sorts worthy of veneration, actually. Guanyin is going to gouge her eyes out for you and she's going to do it calmly and lovingly. She is not a goddess of fucking your shit up, but one of staunchly defending and practicing the Dhamma and telling things like anger to get bent. There's definitely a lot more to her, but that is very important to things. Got shit to do. Mindfully and with equanimity. THIS. This so much. One thing I've learned about Sarasvati, in both the lore and my experiences of her, is that when she gets angry, watch out! But the flip side of that is that she just doesn't get angry over petty shit, or because she's having a "bad day." She gets angry because you (general you) have really done something wrong and you need to be punished for it. And then she is like the river goddess of the Vedas, breaking the backs of mountains. I shudder to think of what I would need to do to get Guanyin upset with me. Less because of what would happen to me and more because of just wow how did I even do something that bad. If it's bad enough to get the woman who went out and gave her eyes to a man who had one of her lives executed angry then it has to be some serious shit. Like "Feanor and the Kinslaying" levels of serious. |
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Post by Allec on Mar 31, 2015 2:54:44 GMT -6
( MOD NOTE: The discussion of Gaelic culture has been moved to the Gaelic Polytheism board here. It's a great conversation to have, but not directly related to this thread. Carry on!) |
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