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Post by starlight on Aug 20, 2016 2:22:19 GMT -6
Hi everyone! One of the main reasons I've begun researching the Pre-Christian beliefs of the culture I grew up in (Irish) was the decision to no longer be involved in anything that was considered cultural appropriation. For example, I had a great interest in shamanic practices, not realising that neither the practices nor the term 'shamanic' itself were meant to be used by people outside of the cultures those practices and term came from. I never thought too much about it before my eyes were opened quite spectacularly (I stumbled across the NAFPS website); I assumed (wrongly) that if people were teaching it, it was something widely available and acceptable to learn. The concept that some traditions were actually closed was a new one for me, and it is now important to me that I respect the beliefs and traditions of other peoples. I started a thread over on The Cauldron forum asking about the right thing to do with some white sage I'd bought a few years ago, and got some help with that, but I have a different question for anyone here who may be able to help. This feels like a smaller, more focused community and there is also a thread here about Problematic Behaviour and appropriation, which was wonderful to see. Tbh, I feel a bit lost over at TC because there are so many people coming from a huge variety of pagan backgrounds, and I'm not sure my question about sage (and smudging) was entirely well-received. First off, I'm not trying to change anyone's practices or beliefs; I would just like thoughts and input (if anyone has any). I'm no longer going to engage in the particular practices of Journeying and connecting with a power animal (these are the only two I was doing regularly in the past), because I don't believe it is respectful to the traditions or the peoples who shared their techniques with anthropologists and other research people. They didn't realise those techniques were going to be taken away and used outside their cultures without the associated underlying spiritual beliefs and safeguards in place. So, finally (!) to my questions:
UPG - what exactly does one do to have an UPG, and how is this different from 'walking between worlds'?
(Sorry for the inverted commas, but I don't want to use the word 'shamanism' any more...  )
For that matter, is there any evidence - for those of us with a more reconstructionist leaning, because I need to start somewhere - that there were Celtic spirit-workers/walkers between worlds/otherworld journey-ers? Aside from the stories of Oisin and Tir na nOg, is there any evidence that Irish pre-Christians 'walked between worlds' at all - on purpose rather than by accident, I mean? Or was it simply the domain of those involved in the spiritual well-being of their people, if they did it at all? The bard/poet-seers had their aisling and specific practices for that, but, again, is that particular practice something an 'ordinary' person would engage in? Did the deities engage with people in this way, outside of their interactions with druid-priests? Is a UPG deity-initiated, or something someone can undertake when they feel the need? Are UPGs similar to guided meditations - and what place, if any, did guided meditation have in Irish prehistory?
Thank you for any thoughts or ideas, or even suggestions on where I can go to find out the answers.  |
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Tides
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Post by Tides on Aug 20, 2016 10:17:46 GMT -6
UPG, to my understanding, can apply to any of our current experiences with the gods/Otherworld/spirits, particularly ones that don't map exactly onto what is in the lore. (And honestly, I would be suspicious if my experiences mapped perfectly to what fracture lore we have.)
As for exact practices, such as types of meditation and how the non-priestly class encountered the gods: We don't know all that much about specific practices conducted by the pre-Christian Irish. Honestly, we don't know that much about the exact practices of the pre-Catholic Christian Irish and we still know more about them than the pre-Christian. Our lore is filtered through a Christian lens as the texts were written down and then copied by Christian monks. Something as complex, unChristian, and likely part of more intensive education (whatever that might look like) as a detailed description of how, exactly, to get to Otherworld has not survived - although this is also true for many, if not most, preliterate cultural practices.
Now, a cross-comparison of the writings of these Irish monks with other monks in a similar time period in other parts of Europe, particularly continental Europe, can show us deep cultural differences and a richness of folklore and understanding of the Otherworld that does not map onto the Christian heterodox understanding of cosmology (which is also mirrored in the writing from other Celtic culture groups, such as the Welsh and Breton). Through the medieval period, the ability to physically visit the Otherworld remains alive, at least as a literary trope. If you combine that with documented research about folk beliefs in Ireland, through the early 20th century, this remained or developed into an understanding of the same, even for a nonliterate people. So there's an argument for people being able to go to the Otherworld (although I, personally, think there's an even stronger argument for the gods coming from the Otherworld to us, but that's a person difference).
As for your final question, I think UPG covers a much wider scope than your question allows. Unverified Personal Gnosis is just your individual (personal) knowing/understanding (gnosis) that isn't verified in the lore. For a personal example, I find that I am best in touch with Manannan Mac Lir when I'm near a healthy body of water, even though if it's not the ocean. There's nothing in the lore connecting Him to rivers or large lakes, but it has enhanced my personal practice.
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Redfaery
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Post by Redfaery on Aug 20, 2016 15:48:24 GMT -6
Hey Starlight! I'm also a member of TC, and I saw your thread there. I didn't reply because I just didn't feel I was qualified to answer.
I'm not an Irish Polytheist, but may I take a stab at answering some of your questions? The issues you point out really cut across pantheon lines in many ways.
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Post by starlight on Aug 21, 2016 0:51:15 GMT -6
UPG, to my understanding, can apply to any of our current experiences with the gods/Otherworld/spirits, particularly ones that don't map exactly onto what is in the lore. (And honestly, I would be suspicious if my experiences mapped perfectly to what fracture lore we have.) Thank you, Tides ! That's a great definition of UPG. You've reminded me of an article I browsed through recently (one recommended here, I think) about the difference between lore and UPG and how they fit together. I must go read that in more detail. As for exact practices, such as types of meditation and how the non-priestly class encountered the gods: We don't know all that much about specific practices conducted by the pre-Christian Irish. Honestly, we don't know that much about the exact practices of the pre-Catholic Christian Irish and we still know more about them than the pre-Christian. Our lore is filtered through a Christian lens as the texts were written down and then copied by Christian monks. Something as complex, unChristian, and likely part of more intensive education (whatever that might look like) as a detailed description of how, exactly, to get to Otherworld has not survived - although this is also true for many, if not most, preliterate cultural practices. OK. That suggests there'd be no point in doing any research on that topic then. I imagine it means that whatever details are in the lore is as good as we're going to get? I think OBOD approach their studies in that way, they look on the lore as a source of teachings - that the actual teachings were 'encoded' in the lore. But is that purely an OBOD approach, or do CRs also feel this way? I did sign up for the sample lessons from OBOD because I felt that their teachings might be more geared towards UPG using whatever they'd studied in the stories. But I have heard since that there are criticisms of appropriation there, too, and, as well as that, the teachings are based on the Welsh literature, not the Irish, so it isn't AS relevant to me, although I'm looking forward to seeing what's in the lesson anyway. Now, a cross-comparison of the writings of these Irish monks with other monks in a similar time period in other parts of Europe, particularly continental Europe, can show us deep cultural differences and a richness of folklore and understanding of the Otherworld that does not map onto the Christian heterodox understanding of cosmology (which is also mirrored in the writing from other Celtic culture groups, such as the Welsh and Breton). Oh, that's fantastic! Brilliant approach!! Study the works of Irish monks with their European counterparts!! Do you know of any material worth reading on this topic? Through the medieval period, the ability to physically visit the Otherworld remains alive, at least as a literary trope. If you combine that with documented research about folk beliefs in Ireland, through the early 20th century, this remained or developed into an understanding of the same, even for a nonliterate people. So there's an argument for people being able to go to the Otherworld (although I, personally, think there's an even stronger argument for the gods coming from the Otherworld to us, but that's a person difference). Yes, I think that would probably be something I'm beginning to think also. I think the filí had ways of getting to the Otherworld for/with imbas, but perhaps for non-filí the déithe came to them. As for your final question, I think UPG covers a much wider scope than your question allows. Unverified Personal Gnosis is just your individual (personal) knowing/understanding (gnosis) that isn't verified in the lore. For a personal example, I find that I am best in touch with Manannan Mac Lir when I'm near a healthy body of water, even though if it's not the ocean. There's nothing in the lore connecting Him to rivers or large lakes, but it has enhanced my personal practice. Ah, ok. Yes, you're right, my understanding of UPG was much narrower than you have explained UPG to be. Thank you! I was trying to compare what I had been doing (i.e. Journeying) with UPG to see if there was any overlap - there are so many teachers out there who mesh 'Celtic' with 'sh ic". What I am beginning to understand (and thank you so much for your response) is that UPG can be ANY EXPERIENCE that is personal to me and which I believe is a direct connection with the dé or déithe. Perhaps synchronicities would be one type of UPG? As defined by Carl Jung, meaningful coincidences that have no causal relationship to each other yet appear to be related in a meaningful way to the observer. Dreams could be another UPG? Or am I still being too narrow with my understanding? Perhaps the further down the path I travel, the more clear it will be. Again, thank you so much, Tides , for taking the time to respond to my question. Much appreciated! |
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Post by starlight on Aug 21, 2016 0:58:41 GMT -6
Hey Starlight! I'm also a member of TC, and I saw your thread there. I didn't reply because I just didn't feel I was qualified to answer. Hi Redfaery ! I didn't think of that, tbh. Of course people thought the question would be best answered by someone with a NA background. I did get one helpful answer to the question, even so. At some point, I may post this question over on the NAFPS boards, but I am lurking there at the moment trying to learn how best to interact without inadvertently stepping on toes or getting people's backs up. I'm not an Irish Polytheist, but may I take a stab at answering some of your questions? The issues you point out really cut across pantheon lines in many ways. Yes, please do join in! More than welcome!! |
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Redfaery
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Religion: Buddhist Polytheism
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Post by Redfaery on Aug 21, 2016 1:12:30 GMT -6
Thanks starlight! To me, UPG is no more and no less than what it says on the tin: Unverified Personal Gnosis. I don't do guided meditations, nor do I world-walk. Neither activity has ever been necessary for me. For me an UPG usually comes as a "gut feeling", especially one that builds up over time. An example I can give is my patroness Saraswati's fondness for daffodils. Whenever I picked a few from the garden to offer on the shrine, I got an especially warm glow about me that *just felt* like her approval. I later learned that yellow flowers were and still are a traditional offering to Her at her main festival in early spring - which is daffodil season where I live!!! No journeying or "shamanism" involved. My Lady didn't say a word. But it still blew my mind. That to me is what a good UPG is all about. |
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Post by starlight on Aug 21, 2016 2:21:23 GMT -6
Thanks starlight ! For me an UPG usually comes as a "gut feeling", especially one that builds up over time. An example I can give is my patroness Saraswati's fondness for daffodils. Whenever I picked a few from the garden to offer on the shrine, I got an especially warm glow about me that *just felt* like her approval. I later learned that yellow flowers were and still are a traditional offering to Her at her main festival in early spring - which is daffodil season where I live!!! No journeying or "shamanism" involved. My Lady didn't say a word. But it still blew my mind. That to me is what a good UPG is all about. That's a beautiful experience. I see what you're saying. You and Tides seem to be describing UPG the same way, it feels like. It's a sense that something is right, and has fallen into place - you with Saraswati and the yellow flowers (and how cool to get verification afterwards!); Tides with a body of water and a connection to Manannán mac Lir. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain UPG to me, Redfaery. It has given me a clearer picture. |
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Tides
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Post by Tides on Aug 21, 2016 6:49:34 GMT -6
My understanding of OBOD is as an outsider, but my partner just began the readings in their Druid category and has belonged to them for a number of years so I have some understanding of them, beyond perhaps what I did when I read about them years ago and thought they probably weren't for me. First all, OBOD is not reconstructionist - it's probably best understood as neo-druidic, being an offshoot of the Druid Order, a fraternal druidic organization with a primarily mythic founding prior to the 20th century (that is to say, they claim a lineage many centuries back but were likely founded not long before the first world war). They use mythology - primarily Welsh, from conversations about it with my partner, as you say. They also work, to my understanding, with teachings/ideas from the revival druids - non-pagans of the 18th century and onward in Britain with an interest in a Druidic history, with some ties to other fraternal orders, such as the Masons. And even on their FAQ page, they talk about cross-pollination with Wicca/Gardnerian Wicca. In the few readings/listening to their podcast I've done, I've found OBOD to be more dualistic than I personally am comfortable with.
I can't speak to CR - I'd hesitate to call myself one at this point - but I don't think it's scholarly sound to think that Christian monks, when writing the myths we read today, were secretly encoding some hidden secrets of the priestly caste into their writings. And if they were, that would be the job of a code breaker, not a social worker like me. We can learn from the lore, but we can also respect where the lore came from.
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As for comparative texts, give me long minute. It's been some years since I was looking at medieval texts for comparative ideas about culture. One that comes up comparatively often with Irish culture can be cross-comparisons of hagiographies - the lives of saints. Comparing, say, Brendan the Voyager and Brigid of Kildare with early saints in, say, the Iberian peninsula and Rus can give you a fair idea of the concepts shared and the separate, independent cultures.
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Post by starlight on Aug 21, 2016 8:01:23 GMT -6
First all, OBOD is not reconstructionist - it's probably best understood as neo-druidic, being an offshoot of the Druid Order, a fraternal druidic organization with a primarily mythic founding prior to the 20th century (that is to say, they claim a lineage many centuries back but were likely founded not long before the first world war). They use mythology - primarily Welsh, from conversations about it with my partner, as you say. They also work, to my understanding, with teachings/ideas from the revival druids - non-pagans of the 18th century and onward in Britain with an interest in a Druidic history, with some ties to other fraternal orders, such as the Masons. And even on their FAQ page, they talk about cross-pollination with Wicca/Gardnerian Wicca. In the few readings/listening to their podcast I've done, I've found OBOD to be more dualistic than I personally am comfortable with. Thanks, Tides. It's good to get an opinion from someone who has some experience with the order. I had half an idea they weren't reconstructionist and it was more for the potential teaching of how to have UPGs that I was interested in the lessons, but you and Redfaery have explained UPG to me and I can see now that I don't particularly need anyone to teach me about it in order to experience it. As for comparative texts, give me long minute. It's been some years since I was looking at medieval texts for comparative ideas about culture. One that comes up comparatively often with Irish culture can be cross-comparisons of hagiographies - the lives of saints. Comparing, say, Brendan the Voyager and Brigid of Kildare with early saints in, say, the Iberian peninsula and Rus can give you a fair idea of the concepts shared and the separate, independent cultures. Thank you for this. I will look into this a bit more and see what I can find. Is Sacred-Texts a good place to go looking? |
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Tides
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Post by Tides on Aug 21, 2016 8:31:39 GMT -6
Sacred Texts doesn't look like it has much in the way of hagiographies and skimming the early Christian texts they do have, I'm not sure I trust the translations to evoke quite what I'm talking about. I'm a medievalist by education and apologize for any snobbery about linguistics. Hagiographies, at least from the period I'm talking about, often weren't approved by the church (and nor, necessarily were the saints in them) so they give a bit more insight than straight up writings from the later period by thorough Christian saints themselves.
If you can find a copy of Vita Sanctae Brigidae, for Brigid of Kildare, that's a good example of what I mean (and the text dates roughly to the 7th century, giving us an earlier glimpse at Irish culture than even the táin bó cúailnge which textually dates to the late 11th century, despite being set much earlier). (https://brigitssparklingflame.blogspot.com/2015/01/vita-sanctae-brigitae-cogitosuss-life.html appears to have a copy, although I can't speak to the translation used).
This is a personal opinion of mine, obviously, and takes a lot of sifting for gems among the sands, but I think it's worthwhile. It's also fair game, in my opinion, to seek out other early texts, like this, that may not be intrinsically lore-related. For the Irish polytheist, however, this can be difficult as many texts haven't been translated or made available outside of deeply academic circles. It certainly was easier for me to find things when I was still in the Ivory Tower of medievalism than it is now.
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Post by starlight on Aug 21, 2016 9:12:40 GMT -6
Thank you! I have downloaded the pdf. (De Paor's "St Patrick's World" looks like it could be a good read, too. Pretty controversial from the review I read of it. ) |
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