Chev
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Post by Chev on Mar 23, 2015 10:32:50 GMT -6
[Mod Allec: Moved this thread per Zan's request! This was originally posted in this thread but was moved because the topic is slightly different.] Not trying to hijack the thread or anything, but this makes me think back to when I wasn't sure (still am not) about Shiva prodding me and the severe emotional chaos I'd experience. I'd asked TPSGP on Tumblr about it and they'd said it was closed and shared info about (politely) declining a deity's interest/affections if they were in a closed religion because of cultural appropriation. Even if a deity sought you out, you should decline if the religion was closed otherwise it is a bit selfish to pursue the relationship. What is the best approach with this? Does it vary or what? This has been something that's bothered me for a while...
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Post by Intaier on Mar 23, 2015 10:58:30 GMT -6
Sometimes there are legit ways to honor a deity without joining the religion.
(If it's not totally closed tradition that shuns away all outsiders.)
There might be applicable ways to do something.
For example, your practicing hindu friends may invite you to take part in puja for Shiva.
Researching something about the deity; their myths and stories, their hymns and what they like. This is not appropriation.
I have read hindu "catechism" "Dancing with Shiva" to understand this religion better. Friend who was a practicioner, also helped, when I had question.
I look at lord Shiva with big respect :) but it doesn't mean that I should become a hindu.
It's possible to like the deity, and take part in ceremonies for him when these are open for guests/public, and keep some kind of connection.
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leithincluan
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Post by leithincluan on Mar 23, 2015 11:02:32 GMT -6
Not trying to hijack the thread or anything, but this makes me think back to when I wasn't sure (still am not) about Shiva prodding me and the severe emotional chaos I'd experience. I'd asked TPSGP on Tumblr about it and they'd said it was closed and shared info about (politely) declining a deity's interest/affections if they were in a closed religion because of cultural appropriation. Even if a deity sought you out, you should decline if the religion was closed otherwise it is a bit selfish to pursue the relationship. What is the best approach with this? Does it vary or what? This has been something that's bothered me for a while... It's really very strange to call Hinduism a closed religion. It's actually very open. Most Hindus are fine with outsiders visiting their temples to make offerings to the gods, for example. There is no conversion process to Hinduism - it is not a creedal religion (though some sects of it are). In India, there are even Muslims who take part in puja and Hindu festivals. I think that seeing it as 'closed' is a somewhat reductionist way to understand the religion. If I were called by a Hindu god, I would probably honour them within a Hindu framework. (Which doesn't have to mean in a Hindu temple. A lot of Hindu worship takes place at home.) Some people would prefer to become Hindus in order to worship the deity, but that probably wouldn't be seen as necessary by most Hindus. My rule in these situations is to ask people from the relevant culture. Ideally quite a few people. Also, to remember that the way we see things in the West may be reductionist or over-simplified, and that itself may be problematic. For me, the issue is most often not 'is this religion closed to me?' but 'what is a respectful context in which to honour this deity'? Redfaery has become a Buddhist in order to honour the deity appropriately. I pretty much only pray to the Virgin Mary in a church anymore (technically I don't have to do that, but it feels more respectful). These seem respectful ways to go about honouring a deity or saint from another religious/cultural context. In other religions, though, it doesn't need to be as major as either of these things, to be respectful and work from within an appropriate religious or cultural context. It really varies. |
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Redfaery
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Post by Redfaery on Mar 23, 2015 12:08:26 GMT -6
Seconding you, Nay. Hinduism and Buddhism certainly are not closed religions, and Shinto is also surprisingly open. That said, I've still seen some *very* appropriative uses of their theology and imagery, like turning Shaktiism (which I am heavily influenced by) into a sort of feel-good Goddess Spirituality clone, but with curry flavors, or making Guanyin a sexy and ultra-feminine "goddess of mercy". Thus, any outsider hoping to honor a god from one of those cultures -that is, a culture that is not closed, but that has nonetheless historically been subjected to colonialism or imperialism from outside - should definitely keep in mind that they have to "start at the bottom" so to speak. Just like a prospective convert to Catholicism would have to take catechism classes before being baptized and allowed to take Communion.
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jack
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Post by jack on Mar 23, 2015 12:33:23 GMT -6
Not trying to hijack the thread or anything, but this makes me think back to when I wasn't sure (still am not) about Shiva prodding me and the severe emotional chaos I'd experience. I'd asked TPSGP on Tumblr about it and they'd said it was closed and shared info about (politely) declining a deity's interest/affections if they were in a closed religion because of cultural appropriation. Even if a deity sought you out, you should decline if the religion was closed otherwise it is a bit selfish to pursue the relationship. What is the best approach with this? Does it vary or what? This has been something that's bothered me for a while... Leaving aside the discussion of whether Hinduism is closed, since that's already been brought up, the idea that it's necessary to explain to a deity that they shouldn't be interested in you because it's culturally appropriative makes no sense to me? I view it as my responsibility is not to tell the deity they can't do something, but to control my reaction to it - I speak differently about deities from still-practiced Asian religions than I do about European deities whose worship was lost, and I don't talk about some things at all because it's maybe not appropriate, or I'm still figuring out where appropriate is. |
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Chev
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Post by Chev on Mar 23, 2015 13:28:53 GMT -6
Leaving aside the discussion of whether Hinduism is closed, since that's already been brought up, the idea that it's necessary to explain to a deity that they shouldn't be interested in you because it's culturally appropriative makes no sense to me? I view it as my responsibility is not to tell the deity they can't do something, but to control my reaction to it - I speak differently about deities from still-practiced Asian religions than I do about European deities whose worship was lost, and I don't talk about some things at all because it's maybe not appropriate, or I'm still figuring out where appropriate is. Mostly in response to the bit I bolded, but also still ties into the rest of it. That's something that had me confused as well. If the religion is closed and the deity in question chose to seek you out specifically, why should you in turn decline? They chose you specifically so they must like you and what you must be able to offer them. On the one hand I feel like I'm being the spoiled kid with this, actually being selfish ("But they chose me! They like me!"), but the other it's like... out of all of those already in the religion (or otherwise 'allowed') they decided there was something neat about me that they were like "I like you. C'mere." Also, on the one hand, with the more well-known religions where there are millions of people already giving notice and favor, is it really my place? What if... I'unno, Enkidu decided that notice was needed from an individual versus... hm... Ah Mun, the god of agriculture and corn from the Mayan pantheon? No disrespect intended. Or Lei Gong, no disrespect intended either. If Ah Mun, or Lei Gong, decided that I was worthy of His affections and notice, I would probably want to decline due to not having any base fundamental understanding of anything of the culture, not to mention I believe that Mayan anything is pretty hardcore restricted/closed, and Mivi explained to me that the Chinese pantheon was closed as well. The Sumerian/Mesopotamian religion, on the other hand, I don't think is closed? but there are those that do follow the lesser-known god/desses. I would be nervous, maybe frantic even, to learn that They were considering me, but I think I would have to decline Ah Mun and Lei Gong's notice due to the massive cultural divide. Enkidu and his ilk I think would be fine to consider and potentially accept, but... I've just wrapped myself back around to "Where do you say no, or otherwise decline?", hah. It's such a testy thing, and definitely not something you can discuss on Tumblr without people jumping down your throat as soon as you say C.A. |
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Post by Allec on Mar 23, 2015 13:42:52 GMT -6
I think part of the problem of being a white person and feeling called to a deity is that there might be an element of exoticification going on, that the deities of another culture so different from "white" culture feels invigorating and "special." And it is so, so common for people of those cultures in North America and parts of Europe to be threatened by the white dominated society.
This is a case where privilege and one's primary cultural lens plays a huge, HUGE part. And unwrapping that can be done by asking a lot of uncomfortable questions. Like HOW do you think you are called by this deity? HOW are you sure? What do you REALLY know about this deity? etc. Even if you aren't being called by a deity but just feel a connection when researching--asking these questions are important.
So talking to people of the culture first and foremost is important. And that is "people", not person, because there are various beliefs. I think it's important to realize that you can concretely hurt people of certain cultures by approaching deities and ideas of their religion wrong, and that no amount of personal belief can erase that.
But that all said: this really applies to any culture, though just more so to cultures who are actively being hurt today in areas of the world you may live in.
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Chev
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Post by Chev on Mar 23, 2015 13:57:12 GMT -6
I think part of the problem of being a white person and feeling called to a deity is that there might be an element of exoticification going on, that the deities of another culture so different from "white" culture feels invigorating and "special." And it is so, so common for people of those cultures in North America and parts of Europe to be threatened by the white dominated society. This is a case where privilege and one's primary cultural lens plays a huge, HUGE part. And unwrapping that can be done by asking a lot of uncomfortable questions. Like HOW do you think you are called by this deity? HOW are you sure? What do you REALLY know about this deity? etc. Even if you aren't being called by a deity but just feel a connection when researching--asking these questions are important. So talking to people of the culture first and foremost is important. And that is "people", not person, because there are various beliefs. I think it's important to realize that you can concretely hurt people of certain cultures by approaching deities and ideas of their religion wrong, and that no amount of personal belief can erase that. But that all said: this really applies to any culture, though just more so to cultures who are actively being hurt today in areas of the world you may live in. That's it! That's what I felt with the weird divide and not being sure with the "Is this right?" question. I couldn't really figure out how to put it, but that's definitely it - concern about, fear of, and trying to avoid the exotification of a particular deity/religion trying to contact the individual. Being white makes it even more difficult for me because, especially due to Tumblr, I'm constantly wondering if what I'm doing is right when it comes to something that is supposed to be restricted. ... Now I need to go and think on things before I settle too much. Will probably make a new thread here in a bit to help my thoughts. Thanks so much for your post Allec. |
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Post by Allec on Mar 23, 2015 14:05:33 GMT -6
thehindublog.tumblr.com/ is a tumblr blog ran by people of the Hindu Faith. They can hopefully field some more in-depth questions 
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jack
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Post by jack on Mar 23, 2015 14:18:45 GMT -6
Mivi explained to me that the Chinese pantheon was closed as well. Picking this part out just because I have more experience here than in the Mesoamerican pantheon. I will go so far as to say I have made offerings in Matsu's temple in LA and not been turned away, so it likely depends on what parts of the Chinese pantheon are being discussed and the context. Kuan Yin in their various names/selves is one of the most popular deities in the world, just to pick at something obvious. And that's probably true of most living faiths, they're complicated, and different Chinese people are going to come from different faith backgrounds and have different opinions. It's easy to fuck up and not something I would recommend people do lightly but when a god says Do the Thing I think it's reasonable to consider doing the thing. The other side of that is, it comes with obligations. To do the research, to not talk over people who were raised in that belief system, to step back, to support. To not be Sedona about it. If I have UPG that doesn't match what I can publicly point to, I don't talk about it. I try to talk about Taoism and Buddhism as they were taught to me, not necessarily as I experience them. Because I don't have all the necessary cultural understanding to sort why I may have a certain experience, and how I interpret it is meaningless to someone else anyway, because I doubt a lot of people come to Kuan Yin the way I did, you know? My experience is weird and my path is unusual and it's not my place to generalize or teach others. But I'd be in a very different place in my life if I'd said "nope, sorry, can't touch it." |
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Post by Mivi on Mar 23, 2015 20:06:10 GMT -6
It's worth noting that I'm not Chinese in any way, so my opinion on that is pretty whatever. I passed on what a couple of Chinese people (aware of sj issues) told me. If half of the Chinese population said "sure, worship our gods" and the other half said "no please don't, we're sick of white people taking what's ours because orientalism, exotification, etc" I am going to listen to the ones that say no.
Because people are completely fallible. Who's to say your experience with 산신 is true? What's more likely is your desire to work with an ~exotic~ deity and that creates dreams and signs you think you're receiving. Fohrer effect imo.
But like someone said above, there are respectful ways to give them offerings (e.g. when invited to do so by a person involved with that religion, when at an appropriate temple) but a line is crossed the moment you start talking as an authority figure about the god whose culture you don't belong to.
And yeah, the "but your god clearly came to me, they like me!" Is definitely a white privileged thought.
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Chev
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Post by Chev on Mar 23, 2015 20:40:50 GMT -6
@_@ Yeah, I still take your feedback from the others seriously though. It's part of trying to find that balance and this is one of those that makes me really uneasy because of SJ(W) guards on Tumblr - I've been made aware to it and now I judge pretty much anything that's based on the designated Eastern side of the world (for religion) as something that could be appropriated and try to back off as soon as I'm told it's not touchable. I'd say if even a third or a quarter of people asked said they were uncomfortable with it, I'd stay well away, and jump off as soon as I'm told it's not okay - several people would have to tell me it is before I can do anything.
Temples I would love to visit and give notice, especially for those I've got a soft spot on (not that I have more than two), but I know I shouldn't do it out of excitement. Ugh.. *Shakes head.* Thoughts are crowding. But I don't really know how anyone could talk as an authority without working with a temple/church head and without doing massive amounts of research. Or do you mean authority as far as answering questions that individuals may have about something because they saw/heard you talking about it?
Is it privilege to be curious about the middle part there? Beyond paying respects to the temple and well before the mantle of authority? Part of me wants to say the privilege thoughts are just excitement, but isn't that half of the privilege? *Shakes head.* Ugh, I'm just going to get all rambly and ranty and it's just not going to be helpful.
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jack
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Post by jack on Mar 23, 2015 23:07:19 GMT -6
It's worth noting that I'm not Chinese in any way, so my opinion on that is pretty whatever. I passed on what a couple of Chinese people (aware of sj issues) told me. If half of the Chinese population said "sure, worship our gods" and the other half said "no please don't, we're sick of white people taking what's ours because orientalism, exotification, etc" I am going to listen to the ones that say no. Because people are completely fallible. Who's to say your experience with 산신 is true? What's more likely is your desire to work with an ~exotic~ deity and that creates dreams and signs you think you're receiving. Fohrer effect imo. But like someone said above, there are respectful ways to give them offerings (e.g. when invited to do so by a person involved with that religion, when at an appropriate temple) but a line is crossed the moment you start talking as an authority figure about the god whose culture you don't belong to. And yeah, the "but your god clearly came to me, they like me!" Is definitely a white privileged thought. It's really interesting how differently deity interaction is viewed when it's a religion from a culture that's been affected by colonialism and imperialism - if someone said "What's more likely is you just like Loki because Tom Hiddleston is hot" it would get a lot of pushback. I do agree it's important to ask the question of yourself, but it's really not something other people can know either way. My take on discernment is almost always "try it and see" - "I think Odin is asking for X, let's try it and see" "I think Mara also has ties to Y, let's try praising her that way and see how she likes it" "I think I will hate myself less if I practice lovingkindness, can't hurt to try" and so on. Like Zan, I'm curious about what seems to be the wide grey area between 'only give offerings at a temple or when invited' and 'talking as an authority figure'. I absolutely agree with you that the latter is appropriation and wrong. But I think someone could choose to honor, say, Shiva, at the local Hindu temple if they have one, or at home, and do their best to perform puja, or do something else that Shiva indicates is pleasing to him, and don't have a blog about it on Tumblr or act as an authority figure. To me, that is not appropriation because it is between a person and a god and doesn't affect anyone else - most definitions of appropriation I've seen require that the appropriator be seen, or potentially be seen as an authority or their practice be seen as authentic, and that's just not possible if you're not, you know, talking about it. In the same way I believe Loki can take care of himself when... idk, when someone on Tumblr says they're married to Loki and he's set up this Tumblr account and is dictating orders to his other spouses through it, I think if I dream about Shiva and offer a prayer to him when I wake up and he doesn't like that, he can let me know. Practices and titles are another ball of wax entirely, IMO - Buddhism is an open religion but lying about receiving transmission is not the least bit okay, for example, and people who call themselves a shaman or a mambo or any other, similar title without the training are well outside the bounds of appropriateness. But I don't think that's the same thing as potentially talking back if a deity seems to be speaking to you. |
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Post by Mivi on Mar 24, 2015 0:13:26 GMT -6
@_@ Yeah, I still take your feedback from the others seriously though. It's part of trying to find that balance and this is one of those that makes me really uneasy because of SJ(W) guards on Tumblr - I've been made aware to it and now I judge pretty much anything that's based on the designated Eastern side of the world (for religion) as something that could be appropriated and try to back off as soon as I'm told it's not touchable. I'd say if even a third or a quarter of people asked said they were uncomfortable with it, I'd stay well away, and jump off as soon as I'm told it's not okay - several people would have to tell me it is before I can do anything. Temples I would love to visit and give notice, especially for those I've got a soft spot on (not that I have more than two), but I know I shouldn't do it out of excitement. Ugh.. *Shakes head.* Thoughts are crowding. But I don't really know how anyone could talk as an authority without working with a temple/church head and without doing massive amounts of research. Or do you mean authority as far as answering questions that individuals may have about something because they saw/heard you talking about it? Is it privilege to be curious about the middle part there? Beyond paying respects to the temple and well before the mantle of authority? Part of me wants to say the privilege thoughts are just excitement, but isn't that half of the privilege? *Shakes head.* Ugh, I'm just going to get all rambly and ranty and it's just not going to be helpful. I meant, for example, let's say Person S started worshiping 산신. They are white-passing non-Koreans. They did research but didn't bother to ask any koreans or mansin on whether or not it was appropriate. There isn't a lot of info out on the web about how to properly worship the 신, so they've been just offering half-eaten pizza slices from the previous night or applied a different religion's way of worshiping them. They talk UPG about 산신 often on tumblr. They get asks about how to start worshiping 산신. They answer to the best of their ability. This is acting as an authority. When you have no claim to that culture and that culture's religion, you do not get to act like you know what you're talking about, because you don't (and not you specifically, just a general 'you'!) What Person S should have done is: 1. Done research, 2. Gone to a temple or mansin about worshiping in their own home, 3. Accepted whatever answer they received. Full stop. When Person S instead chooses to continue to do whatever they've been doing with worshiping that deity (let's say because they were absolutely sure that god had said "I want you to worship me"), despite that god's own people it came to saying "Nah you shouldn't", that is so incredibly disrespectful and furthers colonialism that is still rampant to this day. It is dismissive to the 100th degree. It's really interesting how differently deity interaction is viewed when it's a religion from a culture that's been affected by colonialism and imperialism - if someone said "What's more likely is you just like Loki because Tom Hiddleston is hot" it would get a lot of pushback. I do agree it's important to ask the question of yourself, but it's really not something other people can know either way. My take on discernment is almost always "try it and see" - "I think Odin is asking for X, let's try it and see" "I think Mara also has ties to Y, let's try praising her that way and see how she likes it" "I think I will hate myself less if I practice lovingkindness, can't hurt to try" and so on. Like Zan, I'm curious about what seems to be the wide grey area between 'only give offerings at a temple or when invited' and 'talking as an authority figure'. I absolutely agree with you that the latter is appropriation and wrong. But I think someone could choose to honor, say, Shiva, at the local Hindu temple if they have one, or at home, and do their best to perform puja, or do something else that Shiva indicates is pleasing to him, and don't have a blog about it on Tumblr or act as an authority figure. To me, that is not appropriation because it is between a person and a god and doesn't affect anyone else - most definitions of appropriation I've seen require that the appropriator be seen, or potentially be seen as an authority or their practice be seen as authentic, and that's just not possible if you're not, you know, talking about it. In the same way I believe Loki can take care of himself when... idk, when someone on Tumblr says they're married to Loki and he's set up this Tumblr account and is dictating orders to his other spouses through it, I think if I dream about Shiva and offer a prayer to him when I wake up and he doesn't like that, he can let me know. Practices and titles are another ball of wax entirely, IMO - Buddhism is an open religion but lying about receiving transmission is not the least bit okay, for example, and people who call themselves a shaman or a mambo or any other, similar title without the training are well outside the bounds of appropriateness. But I don't think that's the same thing as potentially talking back if a deity seems to be speaking to you. The appropriation doesn't stop just because I'm not aware of it happening?? If a white person were to be drawn to 산신 and wanted to worship, so they took it upon themselves to perform 굿 (or whatever 산신 indicates is pleasing) and doesn't shout it from the rooftops, that does not mean it isn't appropriation. The act of taking something from a culture/religion that is closed/that they don't belong to is appropriation. It's flat out ignoring what people from that culture tells you about our gods. I'm saying our gods because they didn't appear to Norwegians, they didn't appear to Europeans, they specifically appeared to Korean people. And you're right, if my white neighbor decided to do the above, I would have 0 clue! No idea. Complete ignorance. That doesn't mean their actions are okay. It doesn't outright affect us, but it does continue to instigate white privilege within your own mind and thus subconscious action. It continues the thinking of, 'well as long as no one knows teehee, I can do what I want with whatever I want and it doesn't matter because what matters most is what I want." You can try to cover that up with talking about "it's about what the GOD wants", but let's be real. If that god's religion is alive, and the god's chosen people* are alive and worshiping, why in the world would they want the people they didn't appear to all that time ago to suddenly come in and worship them? Seems pretty unlikely. Especially with how prevalent white privileged thinking is, since it is so so steeped into every day of plenty of english-speaking countries. |
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aondeug
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Post by aondeug on Mar 24, 2015 0:27:43 GMT -6
There was one thing I was never quite able to stop in my years of practicing Buddhism and that was the shame of practicing it. I took it very seriously and I participated very heavily in the life of a temple. I was part of the community, and studying various texts and even the liturgical language Pali. This also carried over to things like feeling a sort of want to honor Guan Yin, one of the few Bodhisatta that get veneration in Thai Theravada traditions. Including at the wat I went to.
Because so much of Asian cultures just gets horrendously appropriated and while Thailand doesn't have experience with being colonized by Europe a good bulk of Asian countries where Buddhism is practiced do. And people still nick shit regardless.
To me Buddhism is most definitely an open religion however, save for certain traditions wherein proper initiation is a very real condition. In those cases you don't touch it unless you do go through the proper channels and get initiated. For the most part though Buddhism is open and given that it is a missionary faith wherein one of the things you do is attempt to convert people I do feel that there's nothing wrong in theory with practicing it or talking back to gods associated with it. God, I would hope you'd talk back to, say, Guan Yin. She is a very knowledgeable woman and Dhamma is serious business. She's also very busy so it's unlikely but if it does happen. Listen. I don't believe you need an invitation to honor her. Offer things to her, think on her and her devotion to the Dhamma, study stories about her and find the Dhamma in those studies, and if you are really in the direst of straights call out to her.
And really you better be fucking doing it right and not being a shithead. You study and you study hard and you take this very seriously. And while I'm not entirely on board with Achaan Chah's stance of "Go be a monk right fucking now", I am on board with the feeling behind it. Learning the Dhamma and understanding it is serious work. And it is very hard work. You put in that work, and part of that work is not being a cock. This also pertains to honoring of the various gods who are Bodhisattas or Buddhas, and of course to the ones who aren't gods because obviously the Shakyamuni Buddha deserves your utmost respect. He is why you even know.
Lying about receiving transmission from a god, or that you are some sort of authority and especially a member of the Sangha are obviously horrible. That latter thing is the bigger deal for me personally. Don't do that and don't demean the Sangha or say we do not need Sangha and that you are above them. There are reasons that you say Buddham saranam gacchami, Dhammam saranam gacchami, Sangham saranam gacchami. There are reasons for the Triple Gem.
My issues with the Sangha thing are a sort of pet peeve because I have run into Western Buddhists claiming that we do not need the Sangha and we should just get rid of them. To me the idea of a tightly interdependent relationship of laity and Sangha is very important. The laity are supported by the Sangha through spiritual guidance, and the Sangha are supported by the laity through alms, shelter, and donation. We also provide them students, and those students may one day hopefully join the Sangha. And given the whole supported through the community thing are provided an ideal environment for pursuing Dhamma. Some do the same with things like kamma or the various gods and that also frustrates the shit out of me.
Other Asian religions are an entirely different kettle of fish and I'm not familiar on specifics of those so I can't and won't speak about those.
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