|
Post by saintfelicity on Apr 5, 2015 20:41:51 GMT -6
This is jumping off some thoughts I had after some posts in other threads, and just in general because this forum has shown me a lovely wide range of respectfully eclectic practices which I'm very interested in. We've talked about the problematic nature of striving for some sort of cultural "purity" in reconstructionist practices. There's a few facets of this. The example that most folks will probably think of is white supremacist traditions, but there's also another less severe (but potentially more insidious, since it's not as outright?) level of dismissing immigration and how cultures blend.
Some reconstructionist purists only "okay" syncretistic practices when they're based historically. But what I'm finding more and more baffling about that is - where do you draw the cutoff line for that? What point in history says "okay, before this, this is okay for you to reconstruct, but after this, no stop that." The majority of us appear to agree that our deities are constantly living and evolving, and we're now living in an age of a global culture.
Obviously, this excludes closed cultures and shouldn't override treating cultures that have been historically imperialized and abused with great respect. But there's so much mixing and communication between so many rich cultures, and it strikes me that this makes respectfully constructed syncretistic practices more appropriate, rather than less, if we're indeed trying to bring our practices in to the modern age. This is why I tend to prefer the label of "revivalist" rather than "reconstructionist," myself.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by Allec on Apr 5, 2015 23:49:19 GMT -6
I think the process of how the syncretistism happens is what is key. Like you said, imperialism and colonialism doesn't justify the dominating culture stealing from the minority culture.
But I look at my own life. I want to follow a Irish polytheist life style, but I wasn't raised in the Gaeltacht or as a polytheist. So I have a lot of outside factors from my life that influence me. For example, I still celebrate "Christmas" secularly because I grew up with that holiday. Traditional holiday dishes may not be strictly Irish, but maybe Scottish or even Italian since my mum fed us a lot of homemade Italian dishes growing up. Things like that.
|
|
leithincluan
Junior Member
Posts: 85
Pronouns: she/her
Religion: Gaelic Polytheism and modern British druidry
|
Post by leithincluan on Apr 6, 2015 2:21:55 GMT -6
I try to start by looking at history, and historical syncretism. It's clear that there was cross-pollination between a lot of European polytheistic cultures. So I'm not opposed to worshipping Brigantia among my otherwise-Gaelic household deities, or even sometimes honouring Roman or other European deities. (If they were worshipped in the British Isles, I'm happy!)
But, as my British-Asian friend says, "The cultural appropriation has already happened. So what are you going to do with it now?" Many deities and traditions have been brought to modern Britain. I have no issues worshipping them in an appropriate cultural context (that last part is key).
For example, I went to the Hare Krishna temple with my partner (who is doing a project that involves going there) for Rama Navami, last week. I was blown over by how wonderful the temple was. I don't think I was culturally appropriating when I went in to honour Krishna and Rama in front of their statues. However, if I'd put them on my Gaelic altar and worshipped them in a Gaelic context, I would have been. I made sure I also spent time sharing in the practices of the other worshippers, which mainly involved chanting. It was a beautiful experience and I'd love to go back.
The Hare Krishna temple is a ten minute drive from me. I could ignore it, and say that I'm not going near it. But Indians and Hinduism alike have made a major contribution to modern British culture. I think that, as a polytheist, it's more respectful for me to go and honour their gods sometimes, in their own cultural context, than to ignore them entirely and say that I only like 'white people's' gods.
|
|
|
Post by Allec on Apr 6, 2015 11:30:40 GMT -6
I think that's a great idea, Leithincluan!
|
|
Caelesti
Junior Member
Posts: 50
Pronouns: She/Her
Religion: ADF/UU, Modern American Polytheist
|
Post by Caelesti on Apr 8, 2015 21:18:09 GMT -6
I think whatever you practice is going to evolve naturally and adapt to the current culture(s) that surround you, your environment, lifestyle etc. I've lived in the Midwest most of my life, so that makes it hard to connect with gods of the sea, for example. I'm more familiar with Mexican Catholicism than Irish Catholicism (Someday I want to go to Mexico during the Dia de los Muertos- Day of the Dead celebration!) based on what I've been exposed to culturally. I live in a city that has a broad mix of cultures, like Leithin. We have a Hindu temple here too, though it's rather far from where I live (I get around by bus) but I have visited it, it is quite beautiful! I am trying to figure out how these different cultures influence me spiritually, and how to incorporate or acknowledge that without stepping on anyone's toes. One big way I do that is by honoring spiritual/cultural ancestors, for example activists from various social movement. I try to do so in a way that does not disrespect the historic person's beliefs.
|
|
ryeduck
Junior Member
Posts: 63
Pronouns: he/his/him
Religion: TBD
|
Post by ryeduck on Apr 15, 2015 7:22:51 GMT -6
So long as you don't "copy paste" things, I think you're usually in the clear. leithincluan had a perfect example. Honoring Hindu gods in their context once in a while is okay, but putting them into a Gaelic context is not. If the cultures are cool with it, your gods are cool with it, and you're cool with it, then honor away. If any party is not cool with it (closed culture, your gods don't want you to, you don't feel comfortable, etc.) then proceed with caution or do not proceed at all. The same goes with culture in general. If you have neighbors from Mexico and they invite you to celebrate Cinco de Mayo or something, then go and celebrate with them. Just don't say it's your holiday. Be cool =)
|
|
Redfaery
Junior Member
Posts: 72
Pronouns: she/her/hers
Religion: Buddhist Polytheism
|
Post by Redfaery on Apr 16, 2015 9:44:45 GMT -6
For me, a big clue on whether a certain syncretic practice is appropriate or appropriative is "who else does this?" If I'm the only one, or if only outsiders do it, that's a BIG red flag, but if people in the original culture(s) do it as well, that's a positive sign...especially if the practice was originated and/or popularized by them. My example of the latter would be my own personal path, Honji Suijaku: Buddhism syncretized with Shinto.
|
|
|
Post by saintfelicity on Apr 21, 2015 9:45:49 GMT -6
Just realized I liked a bunch of posts here but never wrote a response! These are all great thoughts. Naomi, your point about not ignoring cultures that have made a contribution is especially resonating with me. Especially with cultures that have been imperialized, making an effort to understand them within their context is very important.
|
|
|
Post by hildeburh on Jul 19, 2015 6:01:27 GMT -6
Are we discussing historical religious syncretism or modern neopagan eclectism?
Most polytheistic religions and Abrahamic faiths are syncretic, they contain elements of pagan folkways from cultures they have interacted with throughout their history. Just because neopagan reconstructionists avoid eclectism does not imply their aim is cultural purity, such a statement is a misunderstandinding of reconstructionism. Reconstructionism, aims to apply the world-view of a specific folkway to modern day to day lives, not reenact ancient cultural practices or provide a rallying point for a specific racial profile. White supremacists are neither reconstructionists nor are they cultural purists, that assertion is a stereotype and abhorrent to the vast majority of Heathens, it conflates racism with reconstructionism.
Germanic reconstructionists, in common with other forms of reconstructionism, do avoid eclectism but cultural purity in reconstructionism is impossible, cultures cannot be resurrected but to a certain extent world-views can and that is the aim of reconstructionism in general. We also recognise the role individual and group UPG plays in spirituality but it is seldom discussed, simply because it is personal and largley irrelevant to the wider discussion of the history, linguistics, archaeology and the mythology of our folkway.
Reconstructionism also recognises the regional locus of ancient pagan folkways, unlike the Abrahamic faiths and some forms of neopaganism they are not monolithic, they were tribal and closely tied to local enviroments. So my Heathenry will differ let's say from the Heathenry of someone living in Texas because our kin, climates, fauna, flora, agriculture and local histories are very different, we will share a world-view but there are factors we do not share.
We also, largely do not care when those outside our folkway revere our gods, we welcome all those that wish to honour our deities, where things often get a little tricky is when individuals assert ancient roots for modern practices and cannot, or will not support their claims with evidence. Our deities are evolving? Evolution is a theory that relates to the earthbound natural plane, it is a human concept which does not automatically equate to our deities or to religion in general.
Just some thoughts from a reconstructionist.
|
|
|
Post by Allec on Jul 21, 2015 17:49:33 GMT -6
"Are we discussing historical religious syncretism or modern neopagan eclectism?" More along the lines of both historical and modern religious syncretism, and not so much modern neopagan eclectism--since the latter could constitute its own forum thread But thank you for your thoughts on reconstruction! I think those are the "best" kind of reconstructionists who view their path the way you view it. I've come across people who think that doing anything outside of "cultural purity" isn't recon and it's rather frustrating when such a thing doesn't exist!
|
|
|
Post by hildeburh on Jul 25, 2015 18:07:07 GMT -6
I understand where you are coming from, Heathenry in particular is dogged by Wotanists who expound folkish, neo nazi views but the majority of us are universalists, we firmly disavow such ideology and do not regard such people as part of Germanic Reconstructionism.
The stinking stain that Nazism placed on Norse Mythology still looms large in some peoples minds, a pity as we are unrelated tracing our begginings from Asatru rather than from the 19th century Wotanism of Germany.
|
|
Caelesti
Junior Member
Posts: 50
Pronouns: She/Her
Religion: ADF/UU, Modern American Polytheist
|
Post by Caelesti on Jul 28, 2015 11:44:31 GMT -6
Well, I'm not a recon, but I'm not anything-goes eclectic either. I think gods & spirits do change over time, along with the cultures/individuals that honor them- Nowadays with all the people coming to polytheism/animism/paganism from other religions and bringing modern perceptions from Christianity, secular materialism, feminist spirituality, Jungian archetypalism etc. the way gods are perceived is very different from how they would have been in previous times- this effects our interactions with them, but I think we change more quickly than Gods do.
|
|
|
Post by hildeburh on Aug 18, 2015 4:47:21 GMT -6
Cultures certainly do change overtime but that doesn't necessarily translate to the Gods changing overtime, why do they need to? That seems like an imposition of human values on the divine.
Christians historically defined themselves in opposition to pagans and Heathens, so can any aspect of the Christian world-view be incorporated into a pagan world-view without it becoming unrecognisable as a pre Christian form of worship?
|
|
aondeug
Full Member
Posts: 141
Pronouns: She/Her/Hers, He/Him/His
Religion: Thai Theravada, Irish polytheism
|
Post by aondeug on Aug 18, 2015 23:45:07 GMT -6
I think they change as well, but then it's kind of impossible not to when you're Buddhist. For me it's not imposing human values upon the divine so much as it is that the divine are not fundamentally different than other living things. But then I classify ghosts as living things and the ocean too so I am slightly mad!
I'm not entirely sure how that changing of theirs affects worship of them though. As in where it regards what they want from us. All I can do really is research and practice and pay attention. Maybe I'll get things right, or maybe I will get them horribly wrong. Not really sure!
|
|
|
Post by hildeburh on Aug 21, 2015 4:58:40 GMT -6
Not mad at all aspects of nature have been anthropomorphised and personified throughout human history.
I'm not familiar with the Buddhism so cannot comment on their notions of the divine but being a neopagan is most certainly about research, trial and error and paying attention to the outcomes of practice........ cannot agree more with you on that score.
|
|