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Post by Allec on Oct 1, 2015 13:47:01 GMT -6
I echo Etta's sentiments. I also venerate my bloodline in vagueness, though, without needing to know their names. And whoever shows up that means me well is welcomed.
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Post by Banned User on Oct 1, 2015 14:25:45 GMT -6
so it would be an ideological choice no? for instance i choose which traits and philosophies to believe in. the fact is that somewhere in the past we have ancestors without whom we would not be here warring raping pillaging and killing eachother over resources and power just as we have ancestors being kind and compassionate to eachother. recognising both the bad and the good in our history imo is better than adherance to a 'bloodline' philosophy. i dunno. could be completely wrong.
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Post by Allec on Oct 1, 2015 14:27:50 GMT -6
Who is ignoring the bad our ancestors did? There is an entire ritual dedicated in most traditions to elevating ancestors who were--in some ways--doing bad things as you described.
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Post by Banned User on Oct 1, 2015 14:51:23 GMT -6
yet the moral choices made are specific
they are not the same
unless murder has the same value as kindness
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Post by Banned User on Oct 1, 2015 14:54:37 GMT -6
btw generations back you had 100s of thousands of ancestors - and within that landscape moral choices and battles between choices
the point is that those choices are about IDEAS not a de facto 'ancestor veneration'
you are not going to venerate slavery because some of your ancestors were slave traders
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Post by Radha Ní Dhaimhín on Oct 1, 2015 15:03:18 GMT -6
btw generations back you had 100s of thousands of ancestors - and within that landscape moral choices and battles between choices The idea behind ancestor veneration is not to judge their actions or the reasons behind their actions. It is to simply honor the way they helped get you here. EDIT: When I replied to this post, this was all there was to yours. I can see that you have since brought up the topic of slavery, as an example for some of the horrible things that ancestors can do. Let me tell you about my ancestors - at least the ancestors I know of. On my father's side, I have a Cherokee woman who was the very first of the tribe to own a slave. On my mother's, I have a long, bloody connection to a prominent Mafia family that traces its origin to piracy, thieving, and (I'm sure, based on time and location) slave-trade as well. Do I think that this was okay? Of course not! I condemn their actions, while understanding them in a historical context. I cannot change what my ancestors have done in the past - and the distant past, in some cases - but I sure as hell can ensure those injustices do not progress past my lifetime. I am as active as I possibly can be with regards to Social Justice work, especially matters of class, race, and sexism/sexuality. That, I see, is a reasonable way to make up for the crimes of my ancestors. In the meantime, they still contributed blood, sweat, and tears in order to ensure that I arrived here at this time to continue on that social justice work. I am going to honor that while continuing to revile the evil things they've done. There is no excuse for what they did, but the point of ancestor veneration is to honor those who got you here, not what they did. If you'd like more sources - both historical and modern-UPG - I'm sure I can rustle some up for you in a jiff.
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Post by Banned User on Oct 1, 2015 15:15:35 GMT -6
there is nothing we can do about having got here and theres no reason to venerate it either imoit just is Philologically, "to venerate" derives from the Latin verb, venerare, meaning to regard with reverence and respect.so in other words it is QUALITIES we respect. of course you could respect rapists and serial killers but I cant see why. (of course this in a theological sense)
also it is not possible to make up for the crimes of our ancestors or the crimes that were done against our ancestors THEY ARE DEAD
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Post by Radha Ní Dhaimhín on Oct 1, 2015 15:31:21 GMT -6
there is nothing we can do about having got here and theres no reason to venerate it either imo
it just is
Philologically, "to venerate" derives from the Latin verb, venerare, meaning to regard with reverence and respect.
so in other words it is QUALITIES we respect.
of course you could respect rapists and serial killers but I cant see why. I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you, Gwyr. Dictionary.com has the Latin root as such: While the root has additional meanings of "worship, revere," better Latin words for worship include colo, adoro, and apprecor (ESPECIALLY - as this means ONLY to pray). The reason so many polytheists use venerate is for the very beginning of that Latin definition: to solicit the goodwill of. I solicit the goodwill of professors, employers, and cashiers checking me out at Dunkin Donuts - these are all people that can help me out and make life a little easier - whether it's through helping me get internships during my college years, writing me good recommendations, or being nice enough to chase me out with my wallet if I leave it on the counter. Does that mean that I respect their values? No! But it does mean that I ask them to look kindly on me so I can get through this world a little easier. I believe it's the same with polytheism. As one of my friends' Latin teachers used to say after every exam, "victis honor."
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Post by Banned User on Oct 1, 2015 15:35:35 GMT -6
it is not possible to solicit the goodwill of the dead THEY ARE DEAD
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Post by Radha Ní Dhaimhín on Oct 1, 2015 15:39:27 GMT -6
it is not possible to solicit the goodwill of the dead THEY ARE DEAD And yet so many people work with the dead, both in their religious practices and even their magical ones (which as we both know, has no bearing on a religious perspective - just thought I would comment on the wide range of people who do work with the dead). Just because you choose not to does not mean that you get to put down other people's religions or beliefs. If we're to have a tolerant, polytheistic community, we must all sacrifice our personal prejudices to make an attempt for empathy and understanding.
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Post by Banned User on Oct 1, 2015 15:58:52 GMT -6
Critical thinking does not need to sacrifice anything. never believed in burning books. seems fascistic imo.
hardly 'tolerant'
btw if a system of belief says the world is flat is it flat?
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Post by Radha Ní Dhaimhín on Oct 1, 2015 16:09:22 GMT -6
Critical thinking does not need to sacrifice anything. never believed in burning books. seems fascistic imo.
hardly 'tolerant'
btw if a system of belief says the world is flat is it flat? Critical thinking may not need to sacrifice anything, but common human decency most certainly does. While I respect your opinions and beliefs, it is clear you do not accept others'.
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Post by Allec on Oct 1, 2015 16:51:17 GMT -6
it is not possible to solicit the goodwill of the dead THEY ARE DEAD This is the second time you have been blatantly disrespectful to someone's ideas and/or beliefs in less than two hours. You clearly are exhibiting a pattern of behaviors that are unfit for this forum. We welcome people with questions, disbelief, and doubts but only if those people conduct themselves respectfully. You have shown that you do not. There are better and more diplomatic ways to express the doubts and opinions you have, but you choose to be antagonistic instead.
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Post by saintfelicity on Oct 1, 2015 16:58:39 GMT -6
it is not possible to solicit the goodwill of the dead THEY ARE DEAD This is the second time you have been blatantly disrespectful to someone's ideas and/or beliefs in less than two hours. You clearly are exhibiting a pattern of behaviors that are unfit for this forum. We welcome people with questions, disbelief, and doubts but only if those people conduct themselves respectfully. You have shown that you do not. There are better and more diplomatic ways to express the doubts and opinions you have, but you choose to be antagonistic instead. Gwyr, you can consider this as your notification that a second moderator is reviewing the situation. I am in the process of reviewing all of your actions today. We welcome and encourage productive critical discussion, but you are conducting yourself in an incredibly disrespectful, condescending, and unproductive manner which is absolutely not tolerated here.
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Post by saintfelicity on Oct 1, 2015 17:16:30 GMT -6
Gwyr has been banned.
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